Buderus Starting problems

Derrick Ellefson

I have a problem with a Buderas boiler with a Reillo Burner. New install last year. Customer is seasonal. Every time he arives at his house the burner will stop and stat many times. He just call me and he watched it start and stop 11 times. Onece the unit has been runnig a while it light great. Changed nozzle, filter, did smoke test. All ok. Electrods in right pos. Tank is outside and above pump. We change the fuel canister at install time. Any ideas would help alot thanks

Unknown

More Info?

Pump Pressure? Vacuum Reading? Other combustion readings? When it is starting and stoping, is it lighting or just cycling? Direct Vent? Which Model Riello burner is it? Need more info to help.

Derrick Ellefson

I didnt take pump pressures or vacuum reading. Chimney vented with a barametric, The first time I was there was about two week ago I thought it was a fluke thing.I have the info for the start up back at the shop same with the burner number. Its 80,000 btu boiler. It only happens when the burner has been off for while. Makes me think that it has a fuel supply problem. Thoughts?

ed wallace

buderus

check for water in the oil tank

Big Ed_4

Dirty Boiler

Seems like you went over the burner but did not mention cleaning the boiler. With hozontal flue passage ,cold starts , possitive pressure boilers are tuned though is baffeling. And they fill with sulfer resadue. Vacuum the boiler once a year ..

Also check for any cracks hidden below porcline. A weak eye , dirty blast tube , loose conections on oil valve , can cause the same problem..

M grallert

Use a digital analyzer. Then post the numbers. Check the pump pressure,excess air, CO2 number. These are all too important to guess at, with all cumbustion equipment.
Peace
Matthew

roger provencher_2

buderus/riello problem

forget factory specs and experiment with pump pressure, assuming that you are having this problem with all the settings to specs.usually a small increase in pump pressure will solve this problem,I ended up with increases to 150 to 160 psi .had the same problem with 4 installs last season.this fixed all 4 , buderus tech support was no help !!! would not listen to what I had done and had me chasing ghosts

billtwocase_10

touchy

They are for sure. make sure breech and overfire draft is not too high, boost pump pressure, and adjust with tester only. No guessing or by eye with these. Also distance to chimney and smoke pipe size is crucial. Just because they come out 5", doesn't mean that size to the chimney. I've found a full length straight out the back before any elbows, and increase size to 6" to 7" depending on run. Good luck. peace

Derrick Ellefson

Never made it to the shop today to check the install start up sheet. I'm sure all was ok. I will recheck them once I get to the call. (it's on an island) I talked with customer again today. He said he watched start and stop all with in 5 seconds( on for 5 sec off for 5 11 times) He never hit the reset. I'm thinking it may a thermostat (T87 installed) or thermostat wire the unit is only a (single zome) or aquastat. What do you guys think

GW

burner

what's your oil line and filter set up? Are you lifting oil? An ISLAND and you dont know pressure and vacuum? I'd bring every tool known to man to an island job! Wow. I'd be looking at draft and oil lift/vaccum. Riellos don't lift. Bring a new nozzle for the fun of it.


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Derrick Ellefson

Oil tank is outside above oil pump Burner is down in a basement

Unknown

Not sure?

How is it wired? I asumme T-stat goes to aquastat, aquastat sends power to burner. Should be easy to figure out, with a jumper or two and a meter. Still favoring oil issues.

Derrick Ellefson

Whats goint to be tough about it is that it only happens when its been off for a while. I talked to the customer Monday nite and I talked to him again tonite and its been runnning good

Unknown

Don't you

just hate those calls!

D107

FWIW

HO here who has Buderus G-115/21 riello 40 F3. If you're saying the burner gets stuck on pre-purge (without lighting) then we had that problem on a number of occasions, now finally fixed:

1-floating suction assembly tube may have had problems with oil additive naptha, and end of tube got soft, blocked oil.
That was solved by adding wider tube and a tiger loop de-aerator.

2- on tuneup, tech didn't tighten cannister on tank filter, and air got in the system. fixed by tightening cannister.

Note that the original specs (for our model) called for .50 80B nozzle, which caused repeated impingement. Now with pump pressure raised from 145 to 160 and 70B or 60B or 60W, much better and quieter.

Also make sure total equivalent breech piping is no more than 75% of the chimney height above the breech. (a few 90 Els and Tee and you could be way over that.)

Derrick Ellefson

As far as I can tell from the home owner it lights every time. Though it is very quiet when it runs. It is the same model you describe. Do you know if this ignition transformer pulses or does it stay on?

Derrick Ellefson

If it pulses that would expalin the starting and stoping. it just cant sustain the flame

D107

I'm not qualified to answer that CORRECTION ON AIR SHUTTER

I do know from specs that it has an electronically controlled air shutter--not hydraulic like earlier models. (bought in 2006) CORRECTION: Buderus: "Buderus does not offer the electric OR hydraulic air damper on an OEM Riello burner. Because of our design the draft through the boiler is very minimal..."
Note that Riello has two manuals for the F3 40, one for standard burner--with hydraulic shutter and another for the electronic shutter. Apparently the ones made for Buderus have neither, but you might not know that from the Riello manual. A good tech would probably notice this right away.

I'm looking forward to hearing the resolution of this once you're able to get these very helpful pros on this site some more spec and testing info.

good luck,

David

steve_29

My guess is that the combustion settings and draft setting are not right, causing it to recycle in an attempt to fire.

With that setup Riellos operate nicely with a higher CO2, check draft readings also. -.06 is not what you want at the breech. Check factory specs.

As already suggested increase pump pressure and installing a 70* or 60* won't hurt.

Most importantly use a combustion analyzer.

Unknown

I don't

think Buderus specs any type of air shutter, if it is an OEM burner. I have had the air shutters not close the end switch and they just go around and around. But this doesn't sound like youre problem and I doubt you have a shutter.

M grallert

I agree with you on the pump and its pressure setting, in fact I like to set co2 using pump pressure. Also all of my installs get a tigerloop ultra. These seem to eliminate the potential fuel pull and lift issues.

M grallert

The ignitor drops out after about 1/40 sec or something really quick like that. If the flame is coming off the head the the oil valve closes and the ignitor energizes and it tries again, over and over. There is no air shutter in the factory spec riello. I'ld check pump psi and don't be afraid to go up, keeping an eye on ex. air and co2

Derrick Ellefson

Here is the Anylizer report
CO ppm 8
o2% 5.1
co2% 11.7
Exs Air% 32
Eff% 89.1
287 F stack temp
.08 mbar pressure diff

My pressure gauge had some unschutuled maintance (the needle got screwed up havent used it a while) was not able to check pump PSI. Ignitor set to spec
Again I was there for about 2 hours today lit great all day long. The customer said that the burner motor shut off every time then restarted. Im leaning toward the ingition module. What do you think

Big Ed_4

Check

The motor of the burner shut down then turned on again.. If so you have a bad connection some where ..

Check the prongs on the control tray, they sometimes bend Foward ... Make sure the locking screw is tighten. Check and tighen the wire terminnals.

Big Ed_4

steve_29

Pull the cad cell and see if it locks out, if it does replace the cad cell.

You may have a problem with the coil or possibly the controller

Check the ohms resistance between terminals 1 & 2 should be 1350 +/- 10%

I also have seen where a cold boiler may condense within the chamber, creating steam which causes the burner to lockout or recycle.

I'd suggest that you take your time , start from scratch and at the beginning. That means check, nozzle, etc., don't bounce around.

Call the factory, they are your friend and can help.

Get that pressure gauge, you'll need it.

Unknown

Stack seems low. Have baffles been adjusted or removed to increase stack? Not saying that is your problem, but it will be a problem! Did you check vac.? or connect oil watcher?

Derrick Ellefson

Manual calls for a min of 230 for a stack temp I havent removed any thought the stack temp was a little low too but was with in guidelines

Bob Bona_4

what was

draft in vent, over fire and what is the volume of the space the boiler is in?

Is there a barometric on the vent?

I think you are going to find an intermittent flame drop condition, especially on an island that may see all kind of air pressure changes.

Henry Roma

Buderus w/riello call for -.02"W.C. in the breech and you own whatever it is over the fire. This is very important, With to high of a draft you get flame detatchment. And that could cause the burner to go into a recycle. Go on Buderus.com and download the manual and start back at the origanal settings. Good luck.

Steve V

Condensing?

I have had some experience with some 115's condensing when installed with standing radiation. With a combination of night night time setbacks and a cold start control would cause the flue gases to condense. When the condensate flashes back into steam it will choke the flame of air and cause the flame to rumble extinguish the flame and the burner will go into a re-try. The overpressurizing of the combusiton zone would cause the nozzle to foul. Replacing the nozzle would fix the problem until it happened again (the next day).
A sure tell tale sign of condensing is streaking on the insulation on the inside of the swing out door, and coming from the flue pipe joints and from the chimney thimble.
The best cure for condensing is a logamatic control, or a low limit intstalled in a port in the rear of the boiler wired to shut off the pump when the temp drops to 130 or so will also work.

Good luck

GW

co

co is 8??? That's amazing, I always see them towards 100.

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Derrick Ellefson

The module will retry if it senses flame the goes out? I thought it would lockout.

tommyoil

Try being systematic for starters......

Sounds like your in over your head with this situation. When I hear that you havent used your pressure gauge in a while and the needles broken Im not holding out much hope for your qualifications. You should probably find someone who is well versed in Riello and defer to some SOUND judgement. Setting CO2 with pump pressure??? Gotta wonder about that one. Ever hear of firing rate and air adjustments? I can see changing firing rate/pressure due to combustion problems and adjusting PROPERLY....but using pump pressure solely to dictate my CO2 is questionable at BEST. BUT.....to each his own. Sounds like your grasping for straws instead of doing what a qualified tech would do. Take a Riello class or work around someone that knows the product. Youd stand a better chance at troubleshooting and not look like a putz in the customers eyes (which by now you surely do) Jeez, you even got ME wondering. Just a suggestion. You need a Riello intervention!

Derrick Ellefson

Thanks

Thank for the vote of confodence Tommy. In this area I would guess only 5% of the homes today are heated with oil. Oil is not held in such high regard in this area as it may be in yours. So I guess my Oil skills are not as good as yours. But because I have a few questios make me less quilifies than you? I have called the dist. and have gone over this problem. But beacuse this unit is on an ISLAND I was hoping to get some more feed back. And because my pump gausge does not work mean that I am not quilified? I guess that your meter or battery drill or vacumme gauge or has never broke. The customer actually appreciates me taking the time to figure out the problem instead of grasping at straws so no they dont think I'm a "putz". Mabey I should have them get a hold of you and you can go up there and tell them how much of a putz I was. Because that always looks good in a customes eyes.

steve_29

Derrick, I don't think Tommy is being mean spirited towards you, but you have admitted that you are not experienced with oil systems, only 5% uses oil in your area.

Most oil guys know that oil heat is a NE phenomena and that most homes are heated by other sources.

While we all can't know everything when it comes to HVAC, we all must try to improve our knowledge, and have the proper equipment to service our customers.

While I'm sure your a stand up guy and care, the only way you can get the job done is by having the proper test equipment.

If you work on gas, don't you need a working manometer for proper set up?

I don't think that by asking questions makes you less smarter than me, I ask questions all the time, but in all fairness, there will be a time when that customer will get someone else that will fix his problem.

Call the factory and have them walk you through systematically to determine the problem, as much as I hate to do it, sometimes you need to.

Bob Bona_4

the biggest

culprit w/ Buderus/Riello nuisance lockouts are combustion air, and draft. They HAVE to be to spec. The Riello cad cell has a very specific spectrum range and it doesn't take much to lock out. Any funky flame change and *poof*.

Those two culprits are what Buderus tech finds the most when reps go out on problematic calls. I know, I was a victim once a long time ago-the site didn't SEEM like there were issues, but...gauges don't lie

And, I heard the same thing at the NH facility when I went up there 3 months or so ago to get Blue Flame certified.

Whch reminds me, I have three of those to get installed in the next month or so..

Big Ed_4

Never Stop Asking Questions

I started cleaning fitting back in 1972 . I learned how to fix Timkins and GE burners .... Big Deal I can't remember the year I last seen one . "I forgot more then you know" I remember the old timers barking these words to me. I look back and now and understand but I will never say those words. I will say "I have enough experience to know , that I don't know it all ". New units and controls are comming out as we speak. A area where there was only one fuel changes by the day ... New stuff comes out... new problems arises..

Tech support ... I love them .. Instead of guessing give them a call .. Learn from the guys who work the problems all day long. Once a tech stops asking questions he's dead in the water and they bark " I forgot more then you know "

Ok , just reading just your posts ... Sounds like the place is a vacation home ? Shut down for long periods of time ? They turns it on .. They mentioned the motor starts , then stops, then starts several times until it just runs .. The 115 should not have a electric air shutter .. Where I am going if the flame is going on and off yes it's a combustion problem ..

If the motor starts and stops you have a electrical problem .. Sounds like a simple install , aquastat , relay and t87 ... Is there a low water cut off ? Dirty probe ? New electronic T87 with a built in battery that needs to charge up first ?

Hate to see you chase a fox into the wrong hole ...

M grallert

Setting combustion numbers including co2 with pump pressure is a very accurate and far more precise than using the air shutter of band.

R Mannino

Firing Rate???

How do you maintain the firing rate of the appliance?

M grallert

Good question. As long as I'm not underfiring the boiler and as long as I'm not making crazy pump ajustments the firing rate is only increased a small fraction. With Buderus a slight overfire is not an issue. As long as the numbers line up and I'm not making radical changes I'm happy, boiler is happy and customer is happy. These are my goals:)