More exotic beasts in the Vitodens range

Gordan

In Europe, Viessmann has quite a broader range of condensing boilers, including Vitodens 333, which looks like a particularly well-integrated little boiler. It has everything the Vitodens 200 did, plus a choice of plate heat exchanger with an internal DHW storage tank, or an internal coil-type indirect. It also has the "lambda pro" burner control that supposedly adjusts the fuel-air mixture on the fly, and a 5:1 turn-down ratio. (I'm particularly intrigued by the burner control, as it seems like a major, if common-sense, technological advance over optimizing the combustion once a year, at a particular fixed output.) All this in a compact form factor.

In the UK, for instance, you can get it for well under 2000 GBP. Here, the 200W of similar output, which appears to be a 200 minus the "weather-responsive pump" and the matrix burner, but plus the "lambda pro" burner control and an improved modulation range, costs over twice that. And it doesn't have the DHW tank.

That's just Viessmann. There are lots of other manufacturers.

I feel somewhat slighted by both the lack of options in high efficiency boilers we have here in the US, and the relative technological inferiority of what we do get. The huge price premium is just the cherry on top.

What do the tradesmen think?

J.C.A._3

G.

Try putting a product through UL here in the States.

Then go see CGA, then go see about 30 other approval agencies that will want to see and asses your new equipment.

Add on the cost of shipping by at least 2 different methods...if not more.
These things don't happen for free ! A 4-7 thousand mile trip from the Fatherland costs a bundle...a trip from Germany to England ain't that far.. get it?

Add in the technical expertise that has to accompany the piece, the parts to make sure you can keep it running and a place to warehouse all of it, not to mention a place for all the folks that need to be there to make sure it comes, goes to where it needs to be and answer the phones when you call for parts or help also.
This IS business. They can't give it away!

TRAINING for proper use of the product is also built into the price...and without a doubt an exorbitant expense too! Chris

Unknown

Perhaps,

you are new to this site, or been away for a time.
Typically, prices are not discussed here,, but if you do a "search" back on some of the things you mention, you`ll find many tradesman have had lots to say both good & bad! ;-)

Dave

Paul Pollets

Dead On

You nailed it, Chris.

I'm told that Viessmann will be releasing some of the upgraded Euro wall-hungs shortly. Don't be looking for discounted product. That's a rarity.

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Leo G_103

don't forget

that the V wood burners should be making an appearance on our shores in the very near future!

Leo G

Unknown

Just overpriced

They dont have to do anything more than triangle tube does as far as shipping ,support and testing. They also manufacture their solar tubes in china and then ship them here and charge a ridiculous amount. They are just trying to capitalize on that group of people who have a prestige disorder, they would never get away with it in Europe. There are many good condensing boilers at much lower price with the same quality. They are all up there in the high 90% efficiencys. You cant get higher efficiency with fossil fuel unless you start cracking atoms.

Gordan

I agree, sort of.

I agree that they don't have to do anything more than TT and other manufacturers. (And they certainly do seem to command a price premium in Europe, too.) But TT is not exactly a bargain here, either. None of the mod cons are. I don't think that it's certification; Europe is not known for being less stringently regulated (a gross understatement, that.) I very much doubt that it's transportation, either - we get trinkets shipped from much farther away and they're still cheap; we also get other appliances shipped here from Europe (washing machines, for instance) that are bigger and heavier than a mod con and aren't marked up nearly to the same degree. Or, sheesh, how about a car? Cheaper to buy an Audi or a BMW here than it is in Europe.

Could it have something to do with the apparent fact that companies can still get away with selling ancient technology here, for the kind of prices that Europeans pay for modern products? And could that, in turn, have something to do with their laws, that actually forbid the installation of inefficient heating appliances? Just musing. I know it seems very anti-American, but if lack of regulation is supposed to spur innovation and consumers getting better products, it certainly doesn't seem to have worked out that way in this case.

Gordan

Dave,

It was not my intention to bring up price in any sort of (anti-)competitive fashion; I only bring it up as an indicator of what other MARKETS are getting in comparison to this one. The two are not in competition with each other, so I think that I'm at least in good stead as far as the spirit of the price talk ban is concerned.

I've searched extensively and, other than Dan H.'s columns, haven't been able to find much discussion of the world beyond our shores, and nothing at all about the storage combi units by V. or anyone. I'd be endlessly grateful for any pointers. I'm hoping to get some information, rather than rehash old discussions or instigate. :-)

Many thanks,

Gordan

scott markle_2

Tony,

There is a difference, the Belgian made TT is a good value but it's not built like a Vito 200.

The Vitodens has a flap that prevents cold combustion air from moving through the combustion chamber when the burner is off, it has no heat loosing post purge cycle, it has a more sophisticated burner and gas valve (cleaner burning), the cabinet and heat exchanger are much more robust, The electronics are hermetically separate from the HX intake air area, and the construction is more modular and service oriented.

I sure hope the implication of self cleaning operation on the TT is true, because I'm not looking forward to the gymnastics that are going to be necessary to remove the burner and clean this machine, plus I have some nagging doughts about the tubes themselves closing up and what would be required to clean them, (probably a total HX removal and Acid bath).

The one criticism I will make of the Vito 200 is that is is basically an obsolete euro model. The step up transformer really hurts the electrical efficiency the Variable speed circulator that is liked to burner output is a great and unique feature, but it's electrical savings potential is all but consumed by the power conversion unit.

Viessman is a great company, you may not see the economic value in their products but it's silly to dismiss them as just a status product.

I know Thermomax made the original Viessman tubes in Ireland, I had heard they were building their own manufacturing capacity, if they are infact doing this manufacturing in China I'm sure they will maintain there excellent quality control standards. Remember when made in japan was a stigma? The Apple computer I'm happily using at this moment is manufactured in China, Chinese manufacturing doesn't necessarily equate too lower quality.

From the price comparisons I'v done Vissmann flat-plates (which are very well constructed) are competitive with made in Florida collectors that don't seem quite as well made.

Why bash a company that has brought so much innovation to this industry?

Unknown

Scott

Im not bashing them, and They are an excellent boiler. Im just saying that it is hard to justify the price difference when the small differences are debatable...air flap, better burner. I'm not knocking the Chinese solar tubes either, I buy them. They are the largest , by far and away users of solar thermal in the world. Anyway, what is the cost difference between a triangle tube prestige in Europe as compared to a Veissman?

Unknown

Its not anti American

Your right on the money. Regulation spurs invention. I remeber when the 1.6 toilets were made mandatory and the plumbers were having a fit...The sky was falling! Horror stories of clogged sewers and disease ridden bowls. It took a couple of years and now we have real toilet engineers again because the goverment forced it. The new toilets flush 1 gallon and work just as well. They complain that they are too noisy but that sure didnt stop them from using pvc.

M grallert

I would love to play with one of the Viessmann oil fired wallhungs. I saw one one a table at the Hartford Ct. trade show. Anyone out there have experiance with this unit?
Peace Matthew

Paul Pollets

Points well made

I remain very skeptical of a "self-cleaning" HX. I don't see how a TT HX can be removed easily, if at all. Time will tell if it can perform at peak efficiency without cleaning.

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Unknown

me too

here's a couple pics of one we have in as a backup in a large geothermal application, running for 5 months, 118 design. Pics are a little fuzzy but most of the fire tubes are partially clogged already.

Unknown

Why

did you remove the exchanger?

tim smith

TT cleaning etc

We have pulled the top of the TT prestige, pulled out the refractory top and flushed out the tubes of our oldest TT110 here, appx 3yrs old w/ no service. Had some slight deposits on top edges of vertical tubes, not blocking but hey were in there and so do it. Flushed down through heatx to trap. Flushed out trap. Not a tough job at all. I could remove a heat x and reassemble in appx 2 hrs total. So overall not bad. Ps, I never bought the no cleaning statement but very good on not building up much. Tim

Unknown

locked out

it had locked out on no flame so i pulled the burner while troubleshooting (turns out they neglected to fill their propane tank!)