Any Suggestions For Snow Melt

Justin Topel

I am always curious about the things that I have not learned yet. Does anyone have any suggested reading concerning snow melt design? I have never installed a system with the hydronic company that I help out with their solar. I was wondering if there is some good reading that gives some ideas concerning design, piping, proven methods, special controllers, of course insulation, and so on. I watched Robert Beans seminar the other night on the web, and my interest has driven me to learn some more information. It is really intriguing, but I want to understand more about it. I know that it is something that seems often screwed up by way too many contractors. Any suggestions would be of great help.

Mister T

hot_rod

not a lot to know

chose what type of output and owners expectation, determine the btu/ square foot required to meet ASHRAE class that you chose, and pipe and pump accordingly.

It takes a lot of power to melt snow, 100 btu/ sq ft as a starting point, quick melt, streak free critical applications like emergency ramps helipads at hospitals, etc may require 200, 250 or more btu/ ft.

5/8 or 3/4 pex to move that amount of energy, tight spacing for high performance, size the boiler accordingly, and pump sizing needs to take the glycol % into account.

Sometimes you will see a zoned system with multiple sensors.

Full automatic is possible with a Caleffi or tekmar snow sensor. Always include a spring wound timer for manual operation or over ride.

Mr. Bean explains snowmelt better than most. Google some of his past articles, all the data to do a proper design is already out there.

Viega, Watts, and Uponor have good design help and snowmelt calc programs in their radiant design software.

hr

Cam_2

Best is REHAU

Best Design Dept and by far best products. No brag just facts...

Justin Topel

Great...

Thanks a lot for the information. I find it quite fascinating and want to learn a lot more. When I ask some other people, I get completely different answers concerning design and BTU requirements. Since that is the way they have always done it, it has to be correct, right? :-) I like to know the facts and engineering behind it along with what has worked and not worked for others. I will definitely check those sites out. Does anyone have a recommendation concerning an ASHRAE class? Thanks again.

Mister T

hot_rod

I've never overpowered one!

If that tells you anything.

I have done a couple "factory" designs and had unhappy customers. They were under 100 btu/ sq. ft "budget" jobs.

By far the biggest issue is customer expectations. Surprisingly many customers think these are instant onperformance, like boiling a pot of tea.

The other big issue is operating cost. Many systems in the mountains where I worked only operated for one month until the first fuel bill arrived. Especially true for the at idle systems

And we have not touched on installed cost per square foot! It's not a poor man sport.

hr

Justin Topel

Is it?

Is it the cost of the materials, the controllers, the labor. It seems that the installation would go rather fast because of the openness of the driveway. I know there can be a ton of square footage in the driveway. Is that the reason? I've read to go with larger pex, but I am deducing that the amount per square foot over a 2500 square foot pad, makes the homeowner squint a little funny when they see the proposal for their driveway. Just curious again. Thanks

Mister T

Rich Kontny_3

Kind of:

Reminds me of the guy who uses NA beer to chase a shot of whiskey. Energy efficiency does not fit in with a fossil fueled sno-melt. Solar is ok if you want to pay for the hardware as is waste heat if it is readily available.

And thats all I have to say about sno-melt.

Rich

Mark Eatherton

5 X physical plant costs

Houses load at or near 30 btu/sq ft.hour.

Our snowmelt systems around here load at 150 btu/sq ft/hr.

The smaller the foot print, the higher the cost per square foot.

The emitter is slightly higher (bigger diameter tube at higher density), but the physical plant is the real deal killer.

There is no inexpensive way to do snowmelt, either from first cost nor operating cost. At least not with conventional systems.

Now, I have heard of some systems whereby they bury a WHOLE bunch of tubing, deep within the Earth, and let it gravity circulate up to the snowmelt pad. I'm certain the performance would be lack luster during heavy snows, but it would eventually rid the surface of snow faster than mother nature with free sunshine would...

I came THIS close to doing one for a farmer/veterinarian out on the plains of Colorado, but he backed out at the last minute... I know some people out there have done it.

ME

Rod Kotiga

Hr is right. I've never had a complaint of a snowmelt working too fast. 125 btu's per sq ft is the minimum for me here in the mountains of Idaho. Don't forget about the insulation, unless you wanted to help heat the Earth as well

Rod

Rich Kontny_3

Why not!

Heat the earth or heat the air what is the difference? Both are acts of blatant waste!

Justin Topel

I agree somewhat

We have jobs that involve car washes. They have to be concerned with someone trying to sue them for slipping on the ice. They cannot always shut down every single day that it is a little bit cold. The cost of a lawsuit will pay for a whole lot of BTUs. I don't like seeing things go to waste, but in cases with hospitals, schools, high public traffic areas, I have to look out for their interest as well. Thanks again for all of the responses.

Mister T

Rich Kontny_3

Justin

Car washes, emergency applications etc don't bother me. It is the ones who melt a 6,000 sq ft drive or sidewalks because they can. I have a problem with the concept. Currently they are not allowed here in Wisconsin however there are those who think they should be.

Why not help out some unemployed individuals and use some of the human energy that is in abundance these days. Or some kids looking for spending money???

Justin Topel

I see that point

It is very difficult to do some of these installs where they seem so absurd that you want to choke. We recently priced a job where the homeowner wanted 32 gpm of higher temp water to his personal shower. Our friend won the contract to install his 1.3 million BTU boiler with 120 gallon Turbomax tank, run an additional 1 1/2" water line to the house (500'), different gas meter, etc. This shower is ludicrous. I try my best not to judge others with regards to their spending habits. We do have $275,000 cell phones out there. Haven't seen one? Ask ME to show you his :-). Just kidding. The easiest approach to me is to let them choose what they like and give them the prices. The world is full of wasteful things, some just a lot bigger than others. I always thought you could hire me to sit and watch your driveway all day long and shovel anything that lands on it for the price of the fuel when it was really high. But there are definitely some justifiable cases, that why I ask. Good point though.

Mister T

Rich Kontny_3

I understand

The work is work angle. This has been the slowest year I have had in 40 years. A couple of years ago we put in a Munchkin (to heat domestic water only)hooked up to two 200 gallon AO Smith storage tanks.

This was a condo occupied bt one person. He has eight European shower sprays plus an overhead sunflower head. He absolutely did not want to ever run out of hot water,even if he fell asleep while bathing. The company I worked floor was given a blank check so this surgeon got the best.

All of this does not mean I agreed with the excesses, I profited like everyone else, doing my job.