Heating basement w/ uninsulated mains

Unknown

Why is that when a man talks dirty to a woman, he can be charged for sexual harrassment and when a woman talks dirty to a man, its $3.99 a minute?

McKern_2

this doesn't seem right

I've just learned that the garden unit in this 3 story, 7 unit building is heated by the uninsulated steam supply mains that run along the ceiling. The unit was added when the building was converted to condos about 15 years ago, so I'm assuming that prior to the conversion the pipes had the same asbestos insulation that covers most of the pipe elsewhere in the basement. (There are four mains serving the building--two of them run through this unit.)

I'm guessing that at the very least this will complicate balancing heat distribution, i.e., it will take longer to fill the uninsulated pipes. What are some worst case possibilities? Leave it as? Change it to...?

Thank you

Mark Eatherton

Partial insulation...

I've had situations where the HO finished and insulated the basement, then all of a sudden, the family room in the basement was over heating. I did a heat loss calculation and determined how many linear feet of exposed main I needed to maintain decent conditions, then cut that in half (to compensate for internal gains coming from home entertainment system) and then finally, provided him with Donkey **** insulation (sorry ladies), and told the HO that he may have to take insulation off or put it on depending upon the conditions.

I've not heard from him since.

Each square foot of pipe can output 180 btuH. And yes, in certain situations, it will negatively affect the balance of the system. Just depends upon how much "Pick up " factor, the system design has.

ME

[Deleted User]

Donkey **** insulation?!

now that's a term i haven't heard associated with this biz. what is it?

Mark Eatherton

Black live rubber closed cell insulation....

Donkey **** is easier to say :-)

Technically, it is not rated for temperatures that high, but it just gets a little crisp on the inside is all. It keeps its shape.

Guess I just showed how long I've been in this biz eh...

ME

tim smith

Mark, you could set up a motorized damper that had an arm

on it, hook it to thermostat and voila, it would remove the insulation when it got too cold and slip it back on when warm enough. :O

Mark Eatherton

Trust me...

I considered that avenue... ;-)

ME

[Deleted User]

motorized arm?!

wow, now that's some mighty fine ingenuity

[Deleted User]

ah, Black live rubber closed cell insulation

yes, dd is much easier. and, i found it called that on a swords site, where it's used to protect the blade

we called a local hand-pumped well sock filter that, literally an old sock, bec of it's pendulosity when filled

McKern_2

You can bet that women reading this are rolling their eyes...

The difference between men and women: when a woman sees a pipe encased in insulation, ALL she sees is a pipe encased in insulation.

Now, if there's any chance of restoring order in the room, I want to clarify that I'm referring to a steam system (i.e., 240, not 180, BTU output), which may make a difference regarding the issues associated with removing a stretch of insulation.

[Deleted User]

hmmm, when a woman sees

a pipe encased in insulation, ALL she sees is a pipe encased in insulation

that's what mike sees

mike must be a woman?

if you had one, you'd get the 'joke'
kinda like butterflies?

[Deleted User]

trust me

that's very do-able. logitudinally open, bottom and top, bottom hinged. and they don't even have to open all the way

ill file that away in the, 'i just may patent that some day' folder. along with the new and improved al pex plates

McKern_2

Butterflies? OK, I don't get it. But, please don't tell me now--I blush too easily.

[Deleted User]

don't tell you now?

well, can i call you later?

bob young

DONKEY ****= ARMAFLEX !!

Mark Eatherton

Same number of syllable's...

I guess we're not supposed to talk about ball cocks, close nipples or stripped studs anymore as well eh... :-)

At leas t I apologized to the ladies in my post... Sorry if I offended anyone.

ME

Mark Eatherton

Not really...

It only changes the math. Divide the rooms heat loss requirements by 240, and then whatever you come up with in square foot of exposed pipes, cut that in half, and leave the other half loose just in case.

Use 1" Donkey, er I mean ArmorFlex insulation... ;-)

ME

McKern_2

a calls are $3.99/minute

(Just kidding, of course. I don't want to see heatinghelp.com competing for the craigslist market.)

I'm going to need to re-post this question, since the tread appears to be irretrievably derailed.

Joe Brix

Any chance of boxing the pipe in

to look like a hot air duct? Put some adjustable grill
vents in it to help regulate the convection.

McKern_2

Although it's good to hear that this arrangement is OK/doesn't require expensive repair, now I'm wondering why it wouldn't upset heat distribution.

With 2 partially uninsulated mains serving the front of the building and 2 fully insulated mains serving the back, the radiators in the back of the building will fill with steam before the rads in the front. Depending upon the location of the thermostat, wouldn't this mean that that either the back tends to overheat or the front tends doesn't warm up to the thermostat setting (especially in milder weather)?

BTW--uneven heating IS an issue, but at this point in time, there are a number of potential contributing factors.

Thank you for the info.

nicholas bonham-carter

uneven heat

did you say 1-pipe or 2-pipe? even though the mains should be insulated, [or boxed in-what a good idea!], it is the lesser of evils, in comparison to a lack of venting. if the air can't get out quickly, the steam is not going to "arrive" at the same time for each rad. ideally there should be no backpressure in the mains, as steam rushes in, so that the horizontals are filled first; before it travels up the risers simultaneously arriving at each upper floor.

you could put the sensor for a visionpro thermostat in the coldest area, and from the locked up main unit, set the temperature to 66 deg. to begin with.

taylor indoor/outdoor wireless thermometers are a useful tool to get an accurate reading of present temps, and the highs and lows without having to bother the tennant. the sensor also has a display to give the tennant the reading. this cuts down the inaccuracy of "i'm cold, turn up the heat", because you can see if they really are cold, and by how much.--nbc

McKern_2

It's a one-pipe system with 4 mains (3 story, 7 unit condo building). The main vents are brand new, but no doubt insufficient--installed by someone who "didn't know how" to measure the mains and compute the correct size. (This will be corrected.)

The building is owner-occupied with a shared commitment to keeping costs in line, e.g., the owner of the unit with the temp sensor keeps things reasonably weather-tight. A request to "turn up the heat" wouldn't be considered until the person making the request addressed heat loss from his/her unit. In our case, "uneven heating" doesn't mean that some units are overheated and other units are cold. It's more like some units/rooms are OK when one is appropriately dressed for winter and others are uncomfortably chilly.

Regarding boxing in the mains, the basement unit already runs on the cold side, so we don't want to cut back on the heat.

When I posted the question, I kinda expected to hear that the uninsulated mains would contribute to uneven heating and that a separate hot water zone would better serve this unit. (Not that I actually know anything about the subject--this was an uninformed, blind guess.)

If I'm reading things correctly, it seems that I overestimated the potential problems associated with the partially insulated mains and that this is an acceptable way to heat the basement unit. Right?

Thank you for your help.

nicholas bonham-carter

condo steam probs

i really do think that the moment you add some more gorton #2's to your returns that the warm/chilly problems will be lessened. my advice is: if you can hear your main vents relieving themselves, you need more of them. there should be almost no back pressure on the mains while the vents are open and steam is filling the pipes.

i forgot if you mentioned your pressure, but keeping things under 12 ounces also helps to even out the temperatures of different parts of the system. just as important is to get the radiator vents similarly sized for each floor, with #3 perhaps with the largest capacity. the rest can go with the standard size. always remember, "air is the enemy, to be chased away like the raccoon from the garbage" [sorry, can't remember who gets credit for that most notable quote here]!

are you sure that the temp sensor is in the best place for the system? and it helps to have several accurate digital thermometers in the problem areas, so as to be more precise. better to hear, "it's 62 deg." than "i'm chilly"--nbc

[Deleted User]

dd insulation and temp

the highest rated i found was 200*

but the best for armable would be the stiff, unself- sealing, wrapped fg

Mark Eatherton

Uh Yeah....

As I said, the inside will have a tendency to get a little crisp, but it retains its shape, unlike some other foam insulation.

The problem with Fiber Glass insulation is that when disturbed, it releases fiber into the air, and I suspect that one day they will be found to be as dangerous as asbestos fibers.

ME