Life Expectancy of boilers - oil vs. gas

Steven Eayrs

the cost of oil vs. gas in your area. Huge difference in fuel prices, depending on the area and state your in.

klaus

life expectancy of boilers - oil vs. gas

klaus

life expectancy of boilers - oil vs. gas

posting again for more help... Was initially set on converting to gas and going with mod/con with outdoor reset (already have gas in the house) and going with TT Prestige (waiting on price for Vitodens 200 but we are on a budget and I think that won't work). Also got pricing on Burnham Alpine.

My oil company came to present to us this morning and really want to keep us - they've cut their profit to the bone and I was impressed with the amount of work that went into trying to keep us. With some of the equipement they suggested we'd have to line the chimney - it will cost us around $4K - that isn't something we want to do. We could go with the Viessmann Vitorond with direct vent and with Vitotronic 200 outdoor reset (combined equipment cost: $5350 and installation of $4390 / we also need a new oil tank so another $1600 - total to stay with oil: $11340.

He also gave us a price for the Viessmann Vitola, but w/o the direct vent option for this equipment we are looking at having to use a Power Vent (they will use one by Field), which he said aren't the best option as motors fail, they are loud, and can puff out black smoke if burner isn't firing properly). If we went this route with outdoor reset we are looking at: $13800

If we went with gas conversion we are looking at $13,750 all in for the TT Prestige with outdoor reset (qualifies for $1500 Obama credit and $1000 gas credit).

or another gas option: Burnham Alpine (subsidized equipment through gas company, so qualified for $1500 Obama money but no gas rebate).
$9000 from one company all in
$8400 from another all in.

I am creating a spreadsheet to understand it all and wanted to plug in the life expectancy of the equipment. I understand the mod/con's don't last all that long as compared to cast iron oil fueled boilers. I think this is a variable to consider... if I have to buy two pieces of gas equipment (plus installation) then perhaps sticking with oil makes more sense than I originally thought.

Sorry for sharing pricing but I think it is rather pertinent given that money is definitely an issue in making this decision.

In Summary:
any idea on life expectancy of:
Vitola (AFUE: 87% - cost: $13,800)
Vitorond (AFUE: 86.9% - cost: $11,340)
TT Prestige (AFUE: 95% - cost after rebates: $11,250)
Vitodens 200 - don't have price yet
Burnham Alpine - (AFUE: 95% - cost: about $7,000 after tax credit)

what would you do in my sitution. I have taken your advice and shopped the installer - the Burnham installers are through the gas company and I wasn't as impressed with them as the two other gas contractors or the oil company).

THANK YOU!

klaus

life expectancy of boilers - oil vs. gas

posting again for more help... Was initially set on converting to gas and going with mod/con with outdoor reset (already have gas in the house) and going with TT Prestige (waiting on price for Vitodens 200 but we are on a budget and I think that won't work). Also got pricing on Burnham Alpine.

My oil company came to present to us this morning and really want to keep us - they've cut their profit to the bone and I was impressed with the amount of work that went into trying to keep us. With some of the equipement they suggested we'd have to line the chimney - it will cost us around $4K - that isn't something we want to do. We could go with the Viessmann Vitorond with direct vent and with Vitotronic 200 outdoor reset (combined equipment cost: $5350 and installation of $4390 / we also need a new oil tank so another $1600 - total to stay with oil: $11340.

He also gave us a price for the Viessmann Vitola, but w/o the direct vent option for this equipment we are looking at having to use a Power Vent (they will use one by Field), which he said aren't the best option as motors fail, they are loud, and can puff out black smoke if burner isn't firing properly). If we went this route with outdoor reset we are looking at: $13800

If we went with gas conversion we are looking at $13,750 all in for the TT Prestige with outdoor reset (qualifies for $1500 Obama credit and $1000 gas credit).

or another gas option: Burnham Alpine (subsidized equipment through gas company, so qualified for $1500 Obama money but no gas rebate).
$9000 from one company all in
$8400 from another all in.

I am creating a spreadsheet to understand it all and wanted to plug in the life expectancy of the equipment. I understand the mod/con's don't last all that long as compared to cast iron oil fueled boilers. I think this is a variable to consider... if I have to buy two pieces of gas equipment (plus installation) then perhaps sticking with oil makes more sense than I originally thought.

Sorry for sharing pricing but I think it is rather pertinent given that money is definitely an issue in making this decision.

In Summary:
any idea on life expectancy of:
OIL OPTIONS
Vitola (AFUE: 87% - cost: $13,800)
Vitorond (AFUE: 86.9% - cost: $11,340)
GAS OPTIONS
TT Prestige (AFUE: 95% - cost after rebates: $11,250)
Vitodens 200 - don't have price yet
Burnham Alpine - (AFUE: 95% - cost: about $7,000 after tax credit)

what would you do in my sitution. I have taken your advice and shopped the installer - the Burnham installers are through the gas company and I wasn't as impressed with them as the two other gas contractors or the oil company.

THANK YOU!

tim smith

The oil card is a wild one. Never sure where prices are going to

be. Gas tends to be much more stable. Just find out what your average cost for oil was for this past year. Then find out what all in cost of a therm of gas is. Multiply the therm of gas x 1.4 and that will give you appx the same content of heat as a gallon of oil using a high efficiency gas boiler vs a high efficiency oil boiler. This should tell you at today's fuel prices what looks better. Then get out your crystal ball and take a gander to see what fuel prices will do in future. My bet is on gas, TT prestige very nice piece of equipment. Won't last as long as cast iron boiler but you won't want the 80% boiler in 15 yrs anyway as fuel prices will be through the roof and you will already have recovered the extra expense with savings. Good luck, Tim

klaus

gas vs. oil

we are in Massachusetts. We used approximately 1700 gallons of oil last year at an average cost of $3.50 per gallon. This year we should use approximately 1500 gallons at an average of $3.00 per gallon.

I called the gas company to get some help in figuring out our projected cost of gas - all they could do was direct me to their website to a calculator which doesn't seem very accurate - told me that my oil cost is $2200/year (in actuality it is more than double) and gas cost should be $1100 per year.

Also, wanted to say that I finally got the price from the last contractor I was waiting on (which was my first choice in terms of my perceived quality of installation - this is the company my gut says to go with, although it took a very long time to get the quote and the salesperson was rather unresponsive to my inquiries of when I'd receive it -- tiny red flag which is unfortunate).

Their pricing is (BEFORE rebates/tax credits) - have sent an inquiry to find out if pricing includes outdoor reset which wasn't mentioned in the quote:

Vitodens 200: $15,400
TT Prestige Solo 110: $10,400

tim smith

Both come with outdoor reset

Ps, just call them and ask what the price is per therm for residential rates + the customer service charge.

jp_2

keep in mind

though a cast iron will last longer, when sometime fails on the mod/con you do NOT need to replace the entire unit!!!!

nobody knows the life expectancy of YOUR boiler, if properly set up and maintained.

and does anyone know the true efficiency of the present system?

scrook_2

MA

In New England, Natural Gas historicity has been a fair amount more per BTU when all fuel, transport, delivery & fixed charges are counted than #2 oil for most winters, though less volatile in price than oil. Whether this will continue to hold true in the next decade or so waits to be seen. Another point to consider is whether oil can/will continue to rise in price relative to NG or whether market forces will ultimately cause them to track (e.g. oil falls and/or NG rises until historic parity is again reached).

See also: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_m.htm

(enter Massachusetts, divide price by 10 then multiply by 1.4 for equivalent price/gal #2 (140,000 BTU/Gal)

and see: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm

If you do not have gas in the building already, and you would also like to go to gas for cooking, cloths drying, etc. too, that would be a mark in gas's favor.

With either fuel you're going to need to either line the chimney or side shot out, granted gas you could go cheaper on a liner, at the expense of its expected life, as it's a bit more benign flue gas than oil.

It's a tricky call.

PS_3

Both boilers have outdoor reset included and both will qualify for the gas rebate & tax credit ($2,500 total). You may have to itemize if you want the tax credit.

What type of emitters does your system have & what's your DHW setup?

klaus

answer to one question...

We have an indirect water heater - only 5 years old or so, by Weil McLain - we can re-use.

not sure what an emitter is... taking a guess here: is it what emits the heat? if so, we have cast iron baseboard heaters in most rooms, plus a couple of the old cast iron radiators (this is an 1890's victorian). We've added a lot of insulation, including iconene and have mostly replaced the windows with double pane.

klaus

True...

I like that the Vitodens 200 has life time warranty on heat exchanger... it is where I am leaning because after rebates, tax credits it is a little over $12K. I like that we won't have to worry about it down the road. The Prestige is very alluring though. Not sure the Vitodens is worth the extra $5K. I am now, once again, feeling renewed vigor for the gas conversion.

kpc_73

how about...

the Ray... best of both worlds? What are the emmitters? HWBB Cast iron rads? kpc

klaus

emitters are:

forced hot water cast iron baseboard heaters mostly, but a couple of big old cast iron radiators.

jp_2

viessman

most think its the best boiler....

keep in mind its just a water heater. fancy machining and so forth are nice..... but its just heats water and doesn't win car races.

triangle tube gets high marks also. why buy the cadilac if it only sits in the garage.

does viessman or triangle tube create more American jobs?

Bob Bona_4

well put jp. nm

PS_3

I had my Vito 200 installed in 2005 (CI radiators)and now have 3 winters in Central MA under it's belt. Best investment I ever made (44% reduction in gas usage normalized for heating degree days). I have figured I have cumulatively saved over $3,000 in gas compared to the original beastie. The TT wasn't available when I bought my mod/con - I would definitely take a long look at it if I were in the market now.

Steamhead (in transit)

I thought

we didn't discuss pricing on this forum, for good reason.... Dan?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

billtwocase

pricing

I agree Steam

kpc_73

perfect for...

condensing. www.knowsomethingmore.com

SpeyFitter

sorry...

I am new to the forum and had read vague references to form regarding pricing, but wasn't sure about the rules... am just so confused about what to do, and pricing is really at the heart of it all. If you'd like I can edit my original message and remove pricing. Just say the word.

Also, thank you for all of the responses... this has been immensely helpful.

jp, good point about buying American - hadn't thought of that but should have.

Rod Kotiga

That is EXACTLY how I figure what boiler company to use. By the way go Natural gas and side wall vent that puppy (Triagle Tube Solo 110 ) and leave the chimmney for Santa to deal with. Oil, Yikes It's the year 2009 people!

Rod

tim smith

This is my analogy for Viessman vs TT,

The viessmann is the Rolls royce and the TT is a mercedes. Not all people want a Rolls even though they could afford it. The TT has been a Mercedes for us, reliable, smooth running and has enough bells and whistles to do the same job. Just my take, no knock on Viessmann.

chris_95

alpine

I used my new alpine all winter, saved a ton on fuel... over my old oil guzzling burnham... this boiler is QUIET also, I can't tell if it's running...the circs are louder... Yes you are right about needing external circ board, onboard control doesn't support the current these thing needs for its high flow rate circs... cost me around $7k I think all said an done for a 141 , with some repiping for the circs and concentric venting... a friend installed it for me though who saved me some money