Gas Mod/Con Boiler questions for experts

moneypit

Looking for insight/expertise...

Our 70 year old oil burning converted coal boiler is near death. We are considering converting to gas (for energy savings but, mainly because there is a major crack in the foundation behind the oil tank that can't be addressed until the tank is gone).

Big old victorian (mostly renovated and insulated, some areas with iconene) with cast iron baseboard heat and a couple of CI radiators. about 2400 sq. ft. between floors 1 and 2 (five thermostats/zones on these two floors). Floor 3 (about 800 sq. ft) has its own forced hot air system contained in the crawl space above it - this is powered by gas. We have a fairly new Weil McLain indirect water heater (maybe 5-6 years old - works fine). Gas already in house for Fl.3 system as well as cooking and dryer.

The gas company is selling the Burnham Alpine for $1100 for those who convert from oil. I had two of their recommended contractors in and got quotes of $8200 and $8700 which seemed high considering the subsidized equipment. Isn't this about a 10 hour job? Why so much for labor?

I had another contractor in recommended by family. They only work with Weil McLain and recommended the Ultra. I have done enough research to cross this off the list.

Given the price of the Burnham jobs, I am still looking and am considering Triangle Tube Prestige or Viessmann Vitodens (is this the more affordable Viessmann or am I fooling myself?).

Have an experienced contractor coming next week to price up the TT Prestige. Have learned that finding an experienced installer is essential.

My questions:
<LI>Why over $7K labor on those Burnham jobs when I already have gas in the house?
<LI>Is the cost of V. Vitodens comparable to TT Prestige?
<LI>If we went with V. Vitodens, can we stick with our existing indirect water heater?
<LI>What is the difference between Vitodens 100 and 200 - have read through their literature but as a non-pro it is not easy to understand.
<LI>Any idea of which V. Vitoden we'd need given the size of our house and number of zones (obviously the heating pro who visits will have an opinion but just trying to educate myself as much as possible ahead of time).?
<LI>Any major advantage to V. Vitoden vs. TT Prestige?
<LI>Any overall recommendations for me?

THANK YOU

Jeremy_14

Price

You asked if it's a 10 hour job, is that for one man, two men, four men two work trucks? Your old boiler is 70 years old, I'm guessing it's really big and heavy, are you going to take it out yourself? Because if a small company of three like mine have to break it into sections and remove them, plus cut up your oil tank and clean it so recycling stations will except it, and remove some of your 70 year old piping and electronics which need to be repiped and wired to the new gas boiler. What I'm saying is the destruction process alone is 10 hours easily. The prices you were quoted with the burnham boiler are not high.

moneypit

okay... not an expert here...

I got the 10 hour estimate from another forum. I am just your average home owner without a professional background in the heating area. So, it sounds like it will be more than 10 hours to get this job done. Any ideas on the other aspects?

Denny Reardon_3

Mod Con

the $1100.00 is for the boiler only. The alpine needs to be piped primary secondary.
And all the other parts that doesnt come with the boiler, How many zones? Pumps, float checks, relays, controls, valves, black pipe and fittings, copper pipe and fittings, tstats, pvc venting, air eliminators, co detectors, wiring, permits, removal and disposal of the old heater, taxes. I would assume there will be atleast 2 techs to get this done within 10 hours.
There are many cost involved in the quoted price.
In my opinion a mod Con is the only way to go.

moneypit

okay... starting to get the picture

Okay... I realize my ideas on what is involved in installation are naive.

Any comments on the Viessmann Vitodens 100 vs. 200 vs. TT Prestige? We are committed to converting to gas, just want to be sure we get the best value / least problematic / most sensible equipment for our situation.

Thanks for your responses (perhaps I've embarrassed myself with my lack of knowledge of what is involved in this job... please don't let that stop you from posting... I really need input and appreciate it so much).

Maine Ken

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scott337

Forget the Ray

I'd be skeptical about mod con cast iron. Go with a true mod con, aluminum or ss heat exchanger. the added piping (2 closely spaced t's amounts to about $4.65 in install add. Ray is overrated, poorly designed and still has a built in by pass.

joel_19

vitodens

the vito 100 uses a simpler controll than the 200 The 100 is only available in sizes up to about 100kbtu which may be too small for your application. we use the 100,200 and TT prestige they all have worked very well. Cost wise the boiler is very small part of the puzzel which is what makes the gas company pricing so decieving. i hate it when they do that imagine if car dealers advertised the price of a car but where only including the motor!!

On many projects my parts list of goodies to attatch to the boiler EXCEED the price of the boiler.

clammy

lay out design costs

Money pit i don't want to sound harsh but people have to make a living amd there more to installing a mod con then you thinking besides just piping it and wiring it theres also flow rates/combustion set up /programing the controller and alot more to much to list at least when i,m selling/installing a mod con..also on another note how about a good quality y strainer to keep the water side on your boiler free from the crude which is probalby in all those steel pipes and rads not to mention flushing and cleaning of the existing piping .There's alot more then just throwing in a mod con there's alot of thought and design that goes with it .it is completly differnt animal them a cast iron boiler.On the upside if designed and installed properly you will save money on your fuel usage but remenber this is not your fathers boiler and most mod con require to be serviced yearly by some one who knows what they are servicing and if the unit has not been installed correctly with all the service clearnces in mind it some times make service harder if not impossibale to properly do the required servicing ,also don't forget condensate treatment and a place to drain to or a condensate pump may have to be installed.When looking for a contractor to install your system ask for pics and recommendation from previous installs .as for what i know well a mod con install is always more money then just replacing a cast iron boiler with another caster,and don't think the mod con will last as long as a old cast boiler but after your piping has been set up for a mod con replacing it in 10 to 15 years should be much cheaper being not much repipe to the system side would be needed to be done saying it was all done correctly in the first place plus after even 10 years of service i fiqure the original install price would be less then a compact car lease cost with out insurance .Just my opion find yourself a installer who knows what he is doing and does quality work the price is often forgotten after the bitterness of poor quality peace and good luck clammy

tim smith

Here is my opinion, I just love the Triangle tube for it's

simplicity and reliability. I think the Viessmann is a great piece of equipment but the vito 100 is dumbed down too much for my liking and still too proprietary to me. The 200 I would say is the Rolls Royce of boiler, reliable, great engineering, very proprietary and price like a Rolls. Between all mod/cons, the TT Prestige is my pick for above reasons. Tim

Maine Ken

Everyone has their favorites for many reasons. Almost every piece of equipment has its place.

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moneypit

Thank you for all of the info...

I have two people coming in this week to give me quotes... one who can quote on the vito 200 and TT Presige and the other just on the Prestige.

I appreciate having a greater knowledge of how much goes into installing these mod/cons... at least now I won't make a jerk of myself in front of the contractors - and my apologies for my ignorance on how much goes into the planning / installation of these. Just struggling with having to outlay this amount of $$ at this point, but also want to make a good and sound decision -- sounds like the vito 200 might be too much $$ for us but the Prestige at least is a great option (hopefully we can afford that and don't have to back peddle to the Burnham).

Mark Eatherton

Prepare yourself for pocket shock...

For some silly reason, people (ME included) gets this "Price" stuck in our heads about what we are willing to pay for ANYTHING. Then, when the real price comes out, we're SHOCKED, and start trying to take the thing apart to see if we can see where the "value" is. Let's see, it oughtn't take more than X hours to do X, and I think the going rate for that service OUGHT to be worth X $imolian$ per hour.

And we are usually wrong, by a factor of 50%. Not to say that you could get it done for half as much, but you probably aren't going to get what you THOUGHT you were going to get. And there certainly won't be any peace of mind...

Don't marry the boiler. Marry the company that is going to be doing the work, and you'd better like them, because they will probably be with you for life.

The reason we don't discuss price here is many fold. The most important being, that what I do my jobs for has no bearing on what your job is. There is only one correct answer to the questions "How Much??", and that answer is, "It depends..." Too many variables.

The other reason is, it COULD be misconstrued by the unknowing eye, as price fixing, and I don't want ANYTHING to do with that end of government. They can turn your life into a living hell...

FWIW, the installed cost looks low to me, but I'm probably not having ANY exclusions in MY contract...

They're all good (the heat source). Just make certain you do a thorough job of investigations on the contractor.

Get ready to save between 30 and 60% non your fuel bill.

ME

Mitch_6

Costs

I spent the better part of the fall giving quotes for installs and constantly got beaten up.

I have spent the better part of the winter babying through crappy installs that I am going to refit in the spring.

I ask people how they chose there contractor, the reply was cheapest price, how much can you screw up heat.

BTW, Ultra boiler with series four software is an exultant boiler. It is the installer way more than the equipment that makes a good system. I can quote equal if not more Burnham nightmares. It is Chevy vs. Ford

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