Radiant cooling design help (GrandPAH)

J.C.A._3

When I went to ISH back in 2005, there was a Scandinavian Co that made "mini-tube" that they claimed could handle both heating and cooling.

I believe Mr. Eatherton mentioned something about this technology quite a while back.(Maybe archived??)

Brain farts persist...but that's my recollection.

A belated Happy Birthday too! Chris

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_11

Huge Farmers' Market bldg

Constructed in 1887. Renovating a relatively large area where the concrete floor will be removed for a short while. I'm working on getting tubing in the new pour(G).

There's no central cooling and this will be used mostly for a large customer seating area (roughly 60' x 60'). So.... with the building (35' ceiling height) being heated with steam, the rad heat would be floor conditioning for waves of comfort. Seems like a perfect spot for cooling off the slab during August's heat.

Anyone have first-hand experience?

Unknown

I'll have some,,,

as soon as it turns warm and I try mine out. I DO like these HV Unicos for the dehumidification aspect. My initial thoughts are that the floors will self monitor on air temp. If dehumidification is called in the air temp will begin to drop and the floors will automatically shut off when the space temp drops below setpoint, leaving the (undersized) Unicos to dehumidify without significantly lowering space temp. Naturally it will involve some initial tweaking to get it all balanced out. There is a device out there that I'd have to look back into that monitors space temp, outdoor temp, water temp and humidity and will control the floors so that they are always something like 3* above dewpoint. It is not cheap however and price was the factor that caused me to decide against it. The scope of this project was too small to justify the expense.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Radiant Cooling

Give me a call if you like, I would be happy to share all my information. Radiant Cooling has been working great at my house for 8 years.

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

dewey decimal system

Are you using any enthalpy controls to stay just above the dew point?

Unknown

Bob,,,

Where are you located? If you're close enough I'd like to come take a look. I like the idea of sending the water to the AH first and then the floors. It eliminates the possibility of the floors ever getting cold enough to sweat. FYI for Grandpah, from my research 66* floor temp seems to be the optimum. In my case, if I find it to be necessary, I'll use a slab stat to limit the floor temp to no lower than 66*.

Mark Eatherton

Geoff McDonell is my go to expert on radiant cooling.

He works for Omnicrom AEC in Canada and has written numerous articles on radiant cooling, and over seen numerous rad/cool jobs, and drops by the Wall on occasion.

Also, consider chilled beams, another Euro innovation that has found it's way to our shores.

ME

Unknown

Couple numbers

That control I was talking about- ECLV32O / ECLV32R (note-V might be U, my handwriting sucks) Call **** Barnett 303-322-1858. Make sure you're sitting down when you ask for the price.

and another # for Him Lee who is (if my notes are correct) Uponor's radiant cool guru 866-500-3069

good luck

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

No Dewpoint Controls

I'm just lucky. The 56 degree well water I use works out perfectly. I simply send the coolest water first to the fan coil unit, then the slightly warmer well water, to the radiant panels- walls, floors and ceilings. The fan coil unit lowers the dew point in the house, so the floors do not sweat. The temperature of the floors is about 68 degrees and that is pretty cool. I read, the coolest surfaces you would want, comfort wise, would be 68. This system is in my own house, I think the best way to do this is to have a dew point sensor and do not allow the radiant panels to come on until the dew point is lowered on the house by first running the fan coil unit only, especially if you use a chiller with cooler fluid than 56 degrees. I have been running my house this way for 8 years now and there is no sign of moisture or mold. I even have 96' of pex under my mattress that cools it to about 62 degrees in the heat of the summer, talk about comfort!

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Locstion, Location, Location

MPF, I'm in northeastern Massachusetts. If anyone wants to see the system, call on a hot summer day. I had over 100 people through here last year for the solar tour.

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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Unknown

Yup, close enough

email me contact info?

My thinking right now is it will take the floors so long to reach temp that the dehumidification will take place and satisfy dewpoint needs as the process goes on. I have considered turning the floors off whenever dehumidification is called for but haven't set it up that way, yet. Another thought is to set a dual stage dehumidify control. First stage turns dehumidify on, second stage turns floors off. Interesting you say 68* and others say 66*. Being a cold water swimmer I know what a difference even 1* can make. Soon as I have some operating results I'll post them.

Unknown

Hey ME!

Got any links or other info on the beams?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

dehumdidifikashun

I'm going to be (potentially) dealing with a fractional poertion of a 45,000 square foot space. So dehumidification of the space won't be part of the mix. Lots of opening/closing of 6' wide swinging double doors and about three weeks (typically) of almost 90% humidity when outdoor air is also 90F.

I know I can create a radiant heating comfort zone, but it's the radiant cooling potential comfort zone I need to understand much better.

Unknown

I'd say,,,

under those conditions using the floors is out. Chilled beams with drip trays might work though. Funny part, passive chilled beams with drip trays are very similar in concept to what we call "gravity coil refrigeration" that I've only ever seen used for flower shop coolers.

Derheatmeister

Google: Ute's in Japan

That will explain some more!

Sorry wrong Forum!

Mark Eatherton

Lots of info on the Web...

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=chilled+beams&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Start there.

Our good friend Piotre Z introduced me to them.

Smart guy the Pete.

ME

Unknown

Thanks!

m

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

chilly beamie, the spirits.....

Can't do the CB thing, but very interesting concept. No visual blocking can be utilized due to the view of the timber framing and vaulted ceiling that will be a lit focal-point. However, the vertical columns could possibly be fitted with something. Gets the nurons synapsing(G).