soldering copper

realolman

copper for over 35 years. Usually, I kind of enjoyed it...

Yesterday, I had to move some heating pipes, and it was in a bad spot (isn't it always ) and things did not go too well. While trying to get fittings apart, and getting the water out , using the emory paper , wire brush in the drill, flux, and all that other nonsense, I thought to myself: I can see why people use plastic, and pro press, and stuff like that.

After looking at the price of the propress stuff this morning, I can see why they do not. ;)

clammy

got that right

Not only the price od the tools but the fitting also ,i some times wonder what do you do if the supply houses can't stoch standard copper fitting how the hell are they gonna stock pro press stuff as it is they can't even keep proper stock of pex stuff no less pex al pex i ask and i get that glazed ham look ,i know it probalbly just me i was always told i was trouble ,difficult did not play nor work well with other i know i know it must just be me but them again i always love asking about products for years then give up to only years later have every body tell me about the newest product to bad at the point i have moved on.I also will stick to soldering unless i get a job that i can price all the tools and goodies right into the job and still make money HAHA not in this ecomony peace and good luck clammy

billtwocase

same here

I'm in no rush to invest in switching over. There will always be cooper, flux, solder, sand paper, and fire. And the work looks so much neater. peace

bb_11

Question?

How much does it cost if you burn the building down?

Yes, the tools are expensive, and the fittings cost a lot more than solder.

How much do you pay for the flux, solder, emory cloth, torch, tanks, etc.? How much is your time worth? If you can get the job done faster you will make more money.

I once met a contractor who I told he would not have to worry about burning the building down if he used ProPress. He got very upset and told me about burning a courthouse down in Northern VA a few days before they were done.

Needless to say, his insurance premiums went through the roof.

As for the distributor having enough inventory. You can always try to keep enough fittings for a week or two. Then you can place an order in time for your supplier to get them in stock. A good distributor will increase their levels as demand increases.

You could always contact your local Viega District Manager and ask to borrow a tool. They should be more than happy to help you out. Give it a try, you will like what you see. A lot of the large mechanical contractors are already using it for the above reasons.

bb

realolman

Don't get your tail in a knot

I'd actually like to get one. It's just expensive. That's all. But desirable for all the reasons you just mentioned.

How clean do you have to make the copper pipe, and how do you do it?

Will the fittings move after pressing?

Unknown

Fire good...

33 years, ain't burned nothin' down,,,yet

billtwocase

burnin down

haven't set one ablaze yet. Precautions aways. In this economy not many supply houses are going to bring in special stuff that they may not sell. I've noticed a decrease in supplies at supply houses. They are keeping inventory low in most cases. I have been curious about getting the equipment, but gotta be justified. When you have soldered most of your life, it can be done quickly and safely. Not knocking those who use the plastic. peace

Mark Custis

Stocking

stuff and stocking stuffers.

Clammy it is not just you.

Copper is way down for scrap, but pipe and fittings are still way up.

I do not know what the supply guys are thinking with big blue and orange breathing down their necks with pre-solder fittings, in stock.

I do have viega pex press fittings and tools on the truck. We roughed a two bedroom ranch in four hours with three folks using the maniblock stuff.

They will never learn Clammy but we do.

[Deleted User]

propress,

esp in a jam, old copper/space/no need to wait and wait and wait for the water to stop dripping and dripping and dripping/bread stuffing goop, is the way to go. i've seen copper burst from freezing, and the pro joint stayed right there

and just today, while waiting and waiting and waiting for the water to stop dripping and dripping and dripping at my bro-in-laws, i looked at him and said, 'man, i sure wish i had the pro with me. at full pressure, and aside from getting soaked, the joint would be done. another life saver was where i had three valves that would not completely shut off and i had a steady stream that would have taken a loaf of bread and some very fast soldering of 1-1/2", even if it worked. with each fitting that i put in place, i re-diverted the flow to a 50gal garbage can, and when all the fittings were in place, i went back and pressed them all. bada-bing! and had i suspected ahead of time that the valves were shot, i'd'a shut the building down and sold the customer on pressing ball valves in place

expensive? yeah kinda. but well worth it in those terrible situations. and even in the not so terrible ones

bob young

incompetent workers

if the mechanic is not capable of mastering the use of a torch , he may not be suited to this trade. if he doesn't burn the structure down , he will find an other way to destroy it.

billtwocase

Agreed

I agree bob. The use of a torch has always been associated with plumbing. It's a basic skill, and doesn't take as long as most make it out to be. all you hear is time saved, time saved. That only promotes work that is done too quickly, and usually the quality is somewhat compromised. I guess it's whatever floats your boat, but don't think that all guys that solder are slow and stupid. peace

bob young

welding

are they gonna do away with welding , too ? that is probably worse than soldering. but sometimes is extremely necessary

bb_11

Pipe prep

You need to ream and debur the pipe before you put the fitting on.

No sanding, flux.

You still need to know what you are doing when using press fittings, skill is still required.

The fittings can be moved after pressing. Should you decide to move the fitting you should repress the fitting. I have been told by some contractors that it is not too difficult on the smaller diameter pipe, but very hard for the larger diameter pipe.

The time savings add up. I guarantee you that anyone with a press tool will outperform a person with a torch! Especially when you look at the 2" + pipe. I dose not matter how good you are, you will never go faster than the press tool.

It's a lot of money to get into pressing, but it's worth the investment. Some distributors rent the tool, and allow you to put the rental fee towards the purchase. Not a bad deal if you can get it.

There will always be new technology, but as Rich T. of TOH say about plumbers... "I will try it as long as my Grand Father used it."

bb

Unknown

I've always,

made it a policy that if I'm soldering near combustibles or in a dicey place I keep some means of extinguishing any fire close at hand. It came in quite handy once many years ago but in that case I was cutting steel so the flameage factor was more intensified. I do recall one time a building that burned down because a worker drilled right through a live wire in the wall. So yes, there's more than one way to burn a building down.

Mark Eatherton

\"Hot Work\" requirements in Denver

Very few people working in Denver realize that they are REQUIRED to obtain a permit EVERY time they use a torch in ANY building in Denver. Failure to do so will result in significant fines if the building in which you were working does catch fire, even if it's not your fault.

http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/276/documents/IFC-2601_Hot_Work_20040402.pdf

Proceed with caution...

ME

[Deleted User]

hot work permits and

a designated fire watch person are required in most of the plants where we work. paperwork/time is money/extra personnel; and that's why they love us for introducing them to propress. wham, bam thank you ma'am

Unknown

I think

a Sharkbite fitting or equivalent will work just as well in those situations where the water just won't stop dripping ...................

realolman

Are there

many situations where the pro press will NOT fit because it's too bulky?

Denny Reardon_3

With todays high cost of labor. We need time saving tools to make us money.

[Deleted User]

If you did the statistics among professionals, I'm pretty sure that the number of buildings burnt down due to soldering is quite small. I'm pretty sure you are more likely to get killed in a motor vehicle accident.

billtwocase

statistics

I've heard of more burning due to unthawing frozen pipes. peace

[Deleted User]

will NOT fit because it's too bulky?

yes, and sometimes you just can't get the jaws onto a fitting bec there's something, joist/wall etc, just behind it/in the way. and as you know, there's always 'room' for fireproof material or a piece of sheet metal to keep from burning that something

Baltimore/Maine Doug_5

Welding fire are a classic

The entire Washburn and Doughty tug building yard in Maine burned down from a welder's sparks.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5381446740213131491

lee_7

Sharkbite for 2"? Do they make anything larger then 3/4"?

Unknown

Well ..........

The only situation where we see a constant drip that cannot be soldered is from domestic piping. 1/2 and 3/4 inch is the norm .

It's funny how 23 years installing boilers in thousands of homes , I've never needed a compression fitting , sharkbite or Propress . We always found a way to solder a valve on a semi-leaking pipe . But the Sharkbite can save us some time on these pesky leakers .

Andrew Hagen_2

Push Fittings

I thought I saw some from Viega up to 4" somewhere?

[Deleted User]

We always found a way to solder a valve on a semi-leaking pipe

sure, but sometimes the time spent isn't worth the effort. and ppress is so 'no fuss, no muss'

do they have slip couplings in shark?

Unknown

I doubt

we'll invest many hundreds of dollars on a machine that we just might need for one fitting every 30 or 40th job . 2 guys working together to solder a valve on a leaking pipe is usually pretty quick . I still think a sharkbite type fitting is the best solution for those small diameter pipes that just won't stop dripping .

[Deleted User]

one fitting every 30 or 40th job?

yes, it'd def be a waste of a couple grand for that case

bb_11

How much time

will you waste soldering pipe?

ProPress will cut your time in 1/2. Ask Wayco Wayne! I did a job with him years ago and was amazed at how much time it saved.

The price of the fittings and tools will pay for themselves in short order. Give it a try. Find out who your local Viega District Manager and ask to borrow a tool for a week or two.

There are also press valves available.

As for Shark Bite fittings I don't think I would use them. They are several times more than ProPress fittings, and they have an O-Ring that is in the direct flow of the water.

Be bold, try something that has been around for 30+years. You may find it makes your business more profitable, and able to do more jobs.

Good luck

bb

Unknown

If our installs

weren't in such tight quarters , the tool might be a good investment . I've used a press tool before and it is amazingly quick ......... as long as you have plenty of room to get the tool in the right position . But whaddya do if you have an install like this ? I was saying we should use the Sharkbite only on a pipe that won't stop leaking . Which we do not see often .

How much time wasted by soldering pipe ? Well , that depends on who's doing the soldering 23 years and tens of thousands of soldered fittings ......... In a nice open area the race would be close . In a tight area ? I'm pretty sure I could get the piping done faster with my torch

bb_11

Ron:

Can you preassemble your pipe then install in the tight space? Maybe you only solder a few connections.

I realize you have been doing your trade for a long time, but I don't think there is anyone who can solder faster than press.

Remember, no sanding, no flux, no solder. Most press tools take about 4 - 6 seconds to press each side.

Unknown

But

if you want a nice neat job with plumb and level pipes , you might want another person holding the pipe as you press it onto a fitting . Add to that preassembling ( if neded in tight spots ) , maneuvering the machine into hard to reach places , changing the jaws for different sizes ............ I'll stand by my guess that I can pipe a tight area install with soldered fittings faster than La Machine

I'll have to admit , it's a little bit of " teaching an old dog new tricks " syndrome . I'm just set in my ways .

[Deleted User]

ron jr....I'm just set in my ways

yeah, i'm 58, first started plumbing back in the pack 'n pour days of '71, and enjoy the 'art' of soldering. today, i do both solder and press. but even in those tight spaces, there'd be no tight race; i'd 'smoke' you with a press

Unknown

Lol

Now that sounds like a challenge

I'll find a pic of the front of that hanging boiler , and see if you're still singing the same tune ........

Just to be clear ........with both methods you need to measure , cut , and put a fitting on the pipe . Cleaning , fluxing and soldering do take more time than pressing . But add in tight spaces , jaw changing , maneuvering the heavy tool for a few hours ...... I'm sorry but time saved on a job that needs maybe 30 fittings is minimal , if at all . Just my humble opinion .

Mike , are you able to press every fitting on every job ? Or do you need a healthy selection of sweat fittings too ?