Investments

tom_49

This whole "investing" thing is driving me nuts. And I know times are tough but.......If you "invested" $10,000.00 10 years ago in General Electric, you would have $2,600.00 today. Microsoft, it would be worth $3,700.00. Hmmmm.....Not very good "Investments".

If you think about it, if you install a highly efficient, modern HVAC system in your house now you are saving money every month by lowering your utility bills. If you put an inferior or improperly sized system in, you save money up front but it costs you more EVERY month, FOREVER! If you save say $1,000.00 per year with this new system. in 10 years thats $10,000 in YOUR pocket, the cost of the system. After that its like putting money in the bank (hopefully FDIC insured).

Why are most people so willing to "invest" in the stock market, but not so willing to invest in themselves? Is it the way we as a trade have offered these products?

There are no, none, zero, ziltch guarantees in the stock market(obviuosly). There are 100% returns in good heating equipment.

Sorry for the rant, I will guarantee you 100%, i wont do it again.....today.



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Robert O'Brien

Tom

you're preaching to the choir.People buy for their reasons,not yours!

Andrew Hagen_2

No arguments here

As Robert says, I doubt you will get any argument here.

Don't forget the investment in SDHW, which didn't look that great compared to the stock market last year at this time, even with the tax credit. Yeah, it takes 15 years to pay back, but at least the eventual pay back is a sure thing and it adds value to the home.

The only people who make a lot off the stock market are the investment "professionals".

Robert O'Brien

Even better

If you followed the conventional wisdom to have a large mortgage and put as much a as possible in mutual funds.You're not looking good in either! While the heating system returns its 15% annually tax free.

Edward A. (Ed) Carey_3

Invest in beer

You should consider investing in Beer.

If you had purchased $1,000.00 of Delta Air Lines stock one year ago you would have $49.00 left.

With Enron, you would have had $00.00 left of the original $1,000.00.

With WorldCom, you would have had less than $5.00 left.

But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of beer one year ago, drank all of the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum recycling REFUND, you would have $214.00 cash.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink heavily and recycle.

It's called the 401-Keg.

A recent study found the average American walks about 900 miles a year.

Another study found Americans drink, on the average, 22 gallons of alcohol a year.

That means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles to the gallon.

Makes You Proud To Be An American!


Ed Carey :0

Mad Dog_2

I am finding that people ARE starting to see the wisdom in this

and that is why we are doing a good deal of Tankless water heaters, Buderus Mod-Cons, and some solar. The shrewder folks are catching on. I've been in the market with decent sums of money (over 100 K) twice. Both times I made some really good gains...as soon as I lost 10% I pulled out and was very glad I did. The first time was the best...I bought Intel VERY low and it split several times. Mad Dog

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[Deleted User]

but in a reverse 'stock market' crash,

if by some 'new way', energy costs, elec for example, dropped to pennies cost, the 'stock' investments in
'costly' hvac would take more than a lifetime to pay off

so, unless the 'world gvmt' comes up with a way to tax the sun, wind and well water, those are the more sure-fire ways to go as far as hvac investments. free, used cooking oil is an alternative for heating, but that's already getting tapped out by other users, and coming under the gvmt's eye

[Deleted User]

avg american alcohol consumption

makes me happy to be sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-average

the last figures that i checked had more americans dying alcohol related deaths at a 2 to 1 ratio, vs the total american deaths from the civil war through gulf war 1. maybe people should protest alcohol and not war

Gordy

Green The Hard Sell

Kudos to your lack of greed in the market MadDog!

I sort of ride the fence on some of the green going around in reference to alternative energy. Right now the only thing I see as efficient is DHW production from the sun.

Everything else seems so inefficient PV panels at 15% while its free the panels are not. So why invest in such an inferior method.

Hydrogen is way out there in terms of efficient production to use it.

We could have been so much farther ahead in the game if some government ambition was applied a long time ago.

No one is going to buy electric cars when the price of gas is 1.62 a gal todays price in my area. So the double edge sword to all of this is sky high fuel prices to make people invest in the technology.

I think we need to convert to a transition fuel in the auto industry until technology can catch up. That being NG in the auto industry we are sitting on trillions of cu.ft. in North America.

I just hate to see people heavily invest in the green stuff only for technology to catch up making it cheaper, and more efficient in say the next 5 years. Kind of like the computer revolution. There for a while when you bought a computer it was out dated in terms of the latest in 6 months. That was a meager investment though compared to some of the greener solutions out there now.


Don't get me wrong I'm in, but are we pushing it in peoples faces before technology is truly ready for it.


Gordy


Gordy

Mark Custis

Gordy

Please do not so optimistic.

We can make it happen without them.

One job at a time.

Just do the radiant job or change a light bulb. Thin film PV is here its production is bought up for a few years.

Hydrogen will save us soon.

NG will get us through for a while. There is nothing to do about tech getting cheaper as it ages. The laptop I type to you from cost less than my TI scientific calculator cost when I was in high school, and it is included here FREE.

jackchips_2

So:

".......If you "invested" $10,000.00 10 years ago in General Electric, you would have $2,600.00 today"

Ah, but how many shares would you now own and what will your total shares be worth when this economy recovers?

If you bought 1,000 shares at $10.00 and received 30 extra shares as a dividend each year you would now have 1,300 and your invest will be worth $13,000.00 when they recover to $10.00 and $26,000.00 when they go to $20.00, not including any additional shares added through the dividend program.

I personally will not buy GE because of their business decisions but there are many good, solid companies out there that are excellent buys right now and unless you are such a pessimist (readers, not Tom f.) that you no longer believe in this Country, stocks will rebound.

I saw this in the 70's and 80's which were much worse than now-read 20+ interest rate and much higher unemployment.

Better days ahead.

Jack

Robert O'Brien

Jack

You're point is well taken,however I would say if GE hits $20 not when.There's plenty of people waiting for Worldcom,Enron,Bear Stearns etc and etc to "hit"$20 again.They'll be waiting even longer than those holding GM,Citigroup,Bank of America etc to "hit" $20 again.
Every company I listed was considered blue chip and a leader in their industry,half are gone and the others are hanging by a thread but at least they have a chance to recover

jackchips_2

Robert,

this is the typical glass half-full or half-empty discussion. For every bad company and therefore investment in the market there are plenty worth investing in right now.

GE, despite it's being hammered because of their management past business practices, is ,overall, a strong company, not looking for a hand out (GM, Chrysler, banks, etc.) and still paying a dividend.

I have had my share of bad investments with some because of faulty information put out by the company but most because of foolish decisions but overall I am in much better shape having invested in the companies of this country (and some foreign) than if I had sat on the sidelines.

Besides, I don't drink beer so what else can I invest in-said tongue firmly planted in cheek.

Jack

bill_105

great topic

The psychology of investing is like walking through a casino. Strange thing here is that this is your house. You will spend at least half of your life in the structure. But there is always something more in need of. This conversation piece could go on forever. But not as long as that one of the buxom babe peddling those reusable pipe caps.

tom_49

Jack,

I do agree, there will be better days ahead. And,I'm not saying dont invest in the market, I have my IRA's in the market. My point was that by installing efficient systems, you are guaranteed a savings therefore, a return on your money. I installed a new boiler in my own house 4 years ago and I use 18% less oil. If someone has a $3,000.00 a year fuel bill thats,around $ 550.00, not a bad return. If oil doubles, $1,100.00

It just amazes me how most people wont invest in themselves, they would rather give it to the someone to "manage" it for them and hope it goes up.

Look at the companies Robert points to (GM, citi, BOA). They are only holding on because the gov't bailed them out, otherwise, they would be gone as well and ALL the stock holders money. Crazy times.




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jackchips_2

Yes Tom,

crazy times and I agree with both you and Robert.

If someone is going to stay in their home long enough to enjoy the payback and the comfort it is an investment that should be made.

Unfortunately, most people don't stay very long, for whatever reason and I am discounting the current financial situation. Even many of those who are staying will not invest in their homes, wether it's heating, cooling, winterization etc.

That is why investing in the "market" is the alternative and for some the only way they can reach a comfortable retirement level. They don't and never will understand the compounding affect of saving that potential $550.00 per year because they don't "see" it.

They will see those monthly statements that will go up and down but they can take those statements with them wherever they go and eventually watch them go up.

Our 401k's look bad now but we are continuing to buy shares low (dollar cost averaging) and will reap that reward in the future.

As long as I live that long-LOL.

Jack

Robert O'Brien

Jack

If you bought the S&P 500 on 1/1/96 @ 636,you would currently be up 19% exclusive of dividends in a little over 13 years.That's 1.46% annually,non compounded.
In return for this 1.5% return you took the roller coaster ride of your life,from 636 to 1500 to 820 to 1500 again and to 670 last month,now 750 again.
If you're in your 50's or beyond,isn't 13 years the long term?

I agree there is opportunity today but never ignore the risk.Have you ever heard someone involved in the investment industry say its' not a good time to buy stocks? They never mention a good time to sell!

jackchips_2

Respectfully Robert,

I have interjected more than normal on this thread, am not a financial expert (although have done well doing my own in 62 years) and will now back off leaving you my last thought:

Anyone can play with numbers and either make them look good or not so good. It's what we, personally, do with them that counts.

Happy investing where-ever you go.

Jack

Robert O'Brien

Jack

Since you're doing well that's all that counts.I'm done with it also.It's not "playing with numbers"Those are facts,if you bought and held in the last decade and a half,you haven't done well.

[Deleted User]

$3,000.00 a year fuel bill?!!!

an avg homeowner has a bill that high?!

tom_49

I know of MUCH higher bills

I was at one Friday that had a $700.00 per month bill. 4 year old house. He's not to happy with his 200,000 btu gas boiler serving 3300 sq ft.

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[Deleted User]

$700.00 per month?!!!

i didn't spend $2k for the year for my mostly open, cathedral ceilinged 1800sqft, and that includes my elec. i'd like to rake that person's yard, bec there just might be some money falling to it from his chimney

Robert O'Brien

Location,location,location!

An average LI home uses 900 gallons of heating oil @2.69 currently for $2700 and at 21c KWH,$2400/year is about average for electricity. That's better than $5000/year