RUMBLING PEERLESS 63-03 STEAM BOILER

Jim_64

This is 2nd season on new Peerless 63 gas powered steam boiler, & I am
less than impressed. This replaced a 35 year old Utica boiler that performed
flawlessly. Problem is that it was installed with a Cycle Guard Low Water Cut Off
instead of “manual” float type low water cut off. When you empty the water weekly, as
prescribed, you don’t really clear out all the dirty sediment as I was used to seeing when I
emptied the float type device on the Utica. The result is that when the boiler turns on,
as it heats the water, it starts to “rumble”. You can hear it throughout the house. It does not seem right, and I think it’s a safety issue. Steam and dirty water also stream from the steam valve in the pipe leading from the boiler to the radiators on 1st floor. Have had the plumber in several times to clean out the sediment that clogs the pipes by the sight glass.
That seems to fix the problem, but only temporarily. He already flushed the water in the system. He agrees the design or placement or function of the Cycle Guard is not a good one. He was thinking of a “work around” solution that would more effectively drain the dirty water. I have contacted Peerless about this, but no answer to my letters. I can’t afford to pay the plumber to fix this every few weeks. Nor do I think I should have to pay for a “work-around” . In my view, it seems to be a boiler design shortcoming. I won’t even mention that I just discovered there is a recall on the vent damper that came with this boiler. I’m not getting the feeling that Peerless is customer focused. Any comments on what could be causing this rumbling boiler problem? Thanks. MG

ttekushan_3

oh, where to start.

3 issues:

1) Newer boilers require perfect near boiler piping arrangements to dry out the steam. Is this boiler piped exactly as shown (or better) in the I/O manual?

2) Newer boilers and newly installed boilers must have perfectly clean water, especially at the surface. Use the search function on this site and look at "skimming" a new boiler. If boiler is not fully clean at installation, it never will clean the water surface by itself. This involves letting water off the surface to draw contaminants away that get the steam to carry water along with it.

3) Boiler design. Some boilers are notoriously difficult to get clean and coaxed into producing dry steam (dry steam being steam without water droplets). The water carries over and can even flood the boiler with too much water when it shuts off for awhile. As you might imagine, the next cold start will be "interesting." This is what I suspect the rumbling is.

This is why the way the boiler is piped makes such a huge difference. Please post a few pictures of the installation as it is.

[edit: this boiler is also prone to a tilting water line if everything isn't right. This is a very bad thing. It can leave portions of the internal surface of the cast iron without water to carry away the heat, creating overheated areas of cast iron that get hit with incoming and cascading water. This leaves voids below the waterline that create violent turbulence within the boiler. This will can cause rumble and eventually catastrophic boiler failure. "Catastrophic" doesn't generally mean explosion, but merely catastrophic to the cast iron sections that can crack and leave you needing a new boiler.]

Ultimately the work-around may save everyone some grief but ONLY after the above is attended to. The work-around I picture is piece of two inch pipe fitted with a bell reducer on each end, to 3/4 or 1/2 inch, which ever is appropriate. Then with nipples and elbows, find a suitable place to mount this assembly as a mechanical cut off would be, with the middle of the pipe around the water level. Obviously, you'd include a full port drain valve at the bottom. This will be a sediment trap. I would also put valves in the lines attaching this assembly to the boiler so you could close the bottom one to completely drain the trap to get rid of contaminants at the water's surface. You can use this contraption for surface blow off while the boiler is running, or a cold skim device, and for clearing some water from the boiler in general.

hope this helps.

-Terry
p.s. Have qualified personnel double check the manifold gas pressure to make sure the boiler is not over firing.

And pictures. Don't forget pictures.

Nelson_6

Peerless 63 steam

What state are you located in, and have you contacted the local wholesaler or manufactures representative for advise. Sounds to me like there is a problem with the near boiler piping. Looking forward to seeing the pictures.

clammy

steam pro

i have installed a few peerless 63 gas fire steam boiler and even though i'm not a huge fan of the particular lwco with it's clyle guard i will say they are a great steam boiler with large tapping ,your promblem may in all probalblity has nothing to due with the boiler maybe its as other have said your near boiler piping,boiler sizing in the first place ,no main vents,raditor vents ,improper flushing of your wet returns ,no skimming or cleaning of the boiler after install,pressuretrol not set right .Last of has the system itself have regulsr maintance or do you just crank up the t/stat and that,s that .Not for nothing did you use the low bidder i think so clammy

Dick Charland

Where are you located? I work for the Peerless rep in New England and we have not had problems with the 63/64 Series boiler. The type low water cutoff you have has no relation to dirty water in the boiler. With the mechanical unit you had before, you needed to flush the unit to keep the chamber clean in order for the float switch to operate properly.

Replacement of steam boilers usually requires the installer return to clean (skim) the boiler water. This "dirt" is a result of the system being disturbed, sometimes cutting oils from boiler manufacture. Today with many manufacturers going to water based cutting fluids that is less of a problem.

It could very well be that there is an issue with near boiler piping, we won't know until the job is inspected. Please e-mail me with your address and I'll make sure the proper rep receives the information.

**** Charland
E.R. Stephen Co.
Manufacturers' Representative New England

Jim_64

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES

Thanks for all your input on what the problem might be.
Here are some picturs I took... hope they give you the
perspective you need... if not, I'll take them again with
your suggestions. I live in Bergen County, NJ.
I did contact another plumber to quote on this job back in 2007. He came to the house, but never provided a quote even though I followed up. He said the steam vent was not located in the right place above the boiler. It was installed 35 years ago! I mentioned it to my plumber who did this work, & he said it didn't matter.
I went to the plumbing supply place where I know the boiler
was purchased. They implied that the local Peerless rep
company would push me off to Peerless directly. I decided to save some time and just contact them directly, but I've
not had a response. Thanks again, everyone, for your interest in solving this mystery!
MG

ttekushan_3

Oh, where to start. Again.

Cut to the chase:

Use both outlet taps. DON'T reduce coming out of the boiler! Thats now an ejector nozzle, not a steam outlet if the water is not perfectly clean.


I see more things, but the reducers at the outlet and the return inlet are big problems, as far as I can see.

Now, given that everything is done in copper, it will be easy to correct the problems when all that copper above the water line is replaced. The copper itself is not the cause of the problem, however.

Also search this site for "drop header" or dropped header. You will find lovely pictures of the ideal steam piping layout for dry steam.
Again, look at "skimming."

You must do something about this because I worry about boiler damage.

-Terry

P.S. In past conversations with local mechanical company people, the nipple reduction to 2" when using only one outlet seems to cause problems if you don't increase the header by at least one size. In other words, you should increase the line size where it transitions to the horizontal line where the steam takeoff is all the way to where it drops into the equalizer.

clammy

OMG

it's no wonder it working like that ,that is definetly not piped correctly and is need of some saw all surgery ,i work and live in bergen county and see it all the time ,the price to install a steamer correctly is alot higer then what you paid for sure ,what town ? also go to the peerless sight and download the installation instruction for that boiler.i would offer you my contac info but i am not listed and feel it is not fair to those who pay for a FAP ad .But just to give you an idea of who should re do your boiler here's some clues as to who you don't want to re do your piping. anyone who uses copper and refuses to use both supply tapping ,anyone who refuses to increase the header to 3 inch,anyone who does not use swing joints or a drop header this will probalbly have you kick just about all the contractors out of your home ,How do i know this because i live and work in bergen county for over 25 years i see this garbage all the time ! why don't i get all these steam jobs because i cost more and do it right the first time ,no copper all steel ,drop headers ,skim and vents included i cannot compare to guys discraciing and ruining systems like they have done to yours .If i had priced your job out in the first place you would have screamed that i'm ripping you off .And after all these years i am tired to hearing it and i'm tired of tire kickers as i always say 2 things it ain't the equiptment or lwco it's that the sweeten of a cheapened price is soon forgetten after the bitterness of poor quality . i usually get my steam work as refernces only so there clued in to who and what i do so there's never a issue on price because when it;s done your set future water side cleaning is a breeze a strick no BS install no corner cutting but in BC it's a hard boat to row being differnt and a 1 man shop sorry for the rant and peace and good luck clammy

nicholas bonham-carter

rolls royce slogan

your "cheapened price is soon forgotten after the bitterness of poor quality." is just like mr. royce used to say,"the quality is remembered long after the price has been forgotten"

once again if a good sample contract were available, with a work description preventing this sort of unhappy outcome, this unfortunate gentleman would not be in the boat he is. the usual 1 year "tail-light" guarantee often given has probably expired, and now he will esentially have to reinstall the boiler piping. the boiler guarantee is of course dependent on installation following the mfg's instructions, so that's a gonner. of course the contract would also have to be fair to the competent contractor too.


how would all here handle this problem? is there any use in even calling the original installer?--nbc

clammy

not manafacture fault

Hey NBC i don't think it's the manafactures fault at all i don't think they should be reqired to hold hands with the installer who does not read instruction and in all likelyhood does not posses a die larger then 2 inch nor go to the proper supply house that stock 2 1/2 and 3 in fittings plus those fitting cost alot and that;s not figured into the price at all niether is rad vents and or skimming and any provision to clean the water side of the boiler(nipples and caps on return connection instead of socked in plugs ,cross tees ect),I have seen some HO that bust you know what and get it slightly re done for just about no cost but this was amod con not a steamer .This is what happens when you call the big guy with a full page ad in the yellow pages it all looks good on paper and that;s about it.it seems to me some plumbers are better business men then wrench spinners .But hey what the heck do i know i'm a terrible business guy but a half way good wrench spinner who takes on every job as if i had to live with it .I would rather watch my bird feeder then do the wrong thing or cut corners peace and good luck clammy

ttekushan_3

Clammy,

The only area where I blame the manufacturer is that Peerless has a "nipple bulletin" or some such thing where they show the 2" reductions and 2" header. Honestly, I can't imagine why they would publish this kind of thing. No one else seems to, unless we're talking high pressure dry cleaning boilers! They need to listen to knowledgeable people in the field who have had steam quality problems because of this specification. Its their interest to make the standard installation more stringent since its a reflection on the customer's impression of the boiler's quality.

Like I mentioned before, I've talked to people in the mechanical contractor world who have an impression of the Peerless boiler being prone to water line problems and water line tilt. I can see that being a problem if they are piped like this one. Its probably not a boiler problem at all if a better standard of header piping is used.

-Terry

Steve_205

Peerless 63-03

According to the Peerless Series 63 I&OM, the 63-03 only uses a single outlet. Bulletin - 63 Single Riser Single Take-Off pdf file shows the correct piping configuration and pipe sizings. For the 63-03 they do show a reducing nipple to reduce the supply piping from the 3" tapping to 2" piping for the 63-03. So according to the manufacturer the piping configuration looks right. However hard to tell exact sizes from the pictures, so sizing may not be correct.

I like Terry would use both. The copper piping however is definately not recommended with steam. Also there is no insulation on your near boiler piping. These two things combined can lead to the steam condensing before it ever leaves the near boiler piping and will cause wet steam.

I would repipe with iron using both taps and follow the I&OM for dual supply piping. The I&OM has some good illustrations for both configurations.

Just my two cents.

Here is the link for the Series 63 Literature.
http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Products/ResidentialBoilers/Series63/tabid/114/Default.aspx#dnn_relateddocuments

scrook_2

see this thread: drop header

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=63277&mc=9

Leave the copper below the waterline but build a new, large dropped header with nice tall risers out of the boiler, and connect it to the original iron steam main.

Charlie from wmass

Peerless boiler not to blame. The damper recall is an issue but at least they are covering it. Near boiler piping should be at the very least Iron and as per the installation manual. Yes copper is a problem a search of this forum will bring up many threads that explain they why's and how comes no point in going back over that here.

clammy

Exiting velocity

terry i usually just do the exiting velocity math for header sizing and try to keep the velocity betweeen 10 to 15 ft per second and never had any issues with any installs ,i know that some manafacture only show a 2 inch header and i feel it's a marketing tool to seem to have a advantage over the companies that show 3 or 4 inch headers plus alot and i mean alot of guys don't have a 3 or 4 ft wrenchs or the dies and cutters to work with those size pipes properly.i think if more guys did the math they would not have to rely on the fact the may be the I&O are a general outline for header piping and depending upon how many mains your tying into that header .It's just why Dan chose the right name for his first book because it still is a lost art to many ,funny thing is that one day all our new stuff will be thought of as old and a new lost art may have to be written on the newest lost art, i quess you could write a new book and call it the lost art of quality and craftmanship where did it go oh yes profitteers,money excess i forgot ,peace and good luck clammy

nicholas bonham-carter

not the boiler

i have a peerless 211A, and i was impressed with their documentation [including a booklet specifically for steam heating aps], and their tech support was good on the phone as well.

i place the blame on the installer in this case. the nipple buletin may be for the hot water ap for this boiler. the best thing for peerless to do would be to make sure the H O has an opportunity to look at the documentation, before the installer takes a wrong turn.--nbc

Charlie from wmass

Clammy to be honest I am amazed at what jobs like these actually get paid. I often lose bids on steam replacements and other boiler replacements too. The thing is I say to the customer "what are they giving you for your dollar?". Often it is a difference of 20% or less between a hack job and a proper one. I must admit I have been triple the low bidder before too but we all have those stories.

Unknown

another boiler

Another boiler piped wrong ... with all them copper fittings, yep, he's a plumber but not a real steam boiler pro.
Get Dan's book and have the boiler repiped properly by a REAL Steam pro and have your 'plumber' pay for the repipings.

Jim_64

IT SEEMS THE INSTALLATION IS WRONG !

Thanks to all you professionals who took the time to
look at the pictures I posted and to comment on the
issue. It seems you are in agreement that the installation
is not correct. For one thing, as I understand it, iron
piping should have been used. And there is an issue
of incorrect sizing somewhere.
I'm not sure how to remedy the situation. I presume the
area Peerless representative can recommend the right plumber to make the corrections. I would feel more confident going that route.
Or, I could summarize all your comments and provide them to my plumber who did the installation and ask him to
correct the piping. And provide copy of the bulletins. A tacky situation.
I didn't choose him because his price was low... he's my
regular plumber.
To **** Charland: Can you advise the Peerless rep
and maybe suggest a reputable plumber in Bergen County.
How does one know if someone is doing the job right?!!!
Thanks again.
MG

Charlie from wmass

Some plumbers do know how to do steam. Some also can run a threader too. I have seen several professional Heat guys who can not install a boiler whether it is steam or hot water.

Dick Charland

The problem is not with the boiler, but with the installation. The Peerless rep for that area is Advanced Hydronic Sales, Inc. 201-573-0606.

nicholas bonham-carter

resolution of piping problems

if i were you i would show your regular plumber the piping layout from the peerless manual,and see if he can redo it according to factory specs: in particular, layout and diameter of main piping steam header, using black iron pipe, followed by peerless's method of cleaning the boiler. i am sure he would like to keep your present business relationship intact! as it may require several skimmings to thoroughly remove the oil from the boiler, perhaps you can learn how to do this simple, essential, but time-consuming step in the process of boiler replacement. then you're set for another 35 years!

i would also install a 0-16 ounce vaporstat to keep the pressure low like the old utica you had before. you may need some additional main air vents as well. you will find that the new boiler, WHEN PROPERLY INSTALLED, can meet the performance, comfort, and economy of its predecessor.--nbc

Jim_64

Hey Clammy, I like your philosophy. So, this is my boiler
we're talking about. I obviously need a steam pro, and
you sound like you're it. The boiler in question is
in the Dumont-Bergenfield area. How - if can we make
this happen?

Jim_64

My email address for rep referral

Hello again,
You said that Advanced Hydronics Sales Inc. in Park Ridge, NJ is the Peerless rep. After all the replies I've read on this issue, I'm wondering if I should arrange to have
an inspection of the boiler before I move forward. I don't want to let this go on any longer.
TNX. ironmark30yr@yahoo.com

clammy

stomping ground

I'm a old new milford guy just shoot me a e mail and i'll scoop it out ok RDEUZA@aol.com peace and good luck clammy

clammy

yes sir

you hit the nail on the head my friend ,not to bash anyone espically plumbers who some of which are excellent steam guys cause i know them and have seemn ther work but sadly there are more that don't have a clue but are excellent bussiness and marketing men,it's justs why the lost art was the perfect name for dan's book he also hit the nail on the head.i just think that alot of guys just want the hit and run and are to busy to deal with all the details and hope to skim on by ,to myself it has always been in the details it seems there the things that cripple you on job and will make or break you but alot of times when your the only guy who is checking out all the details it makes you different from all the rest and some folks believe that your going over board and that maybe the general thoughts that every body has is right and that your over thinking it until the other stuff isn't performing as it should then the monkey bussiness starts and the work around the promblem starts ,it's a strange world i try to deal in reality straight shooting and truths that way you don't have to remenber lies just the truth. peace and good luck clammy

BRIANJ

Your Plumber

If your friend the plumber refuses to fix the problems or pay to have the problems fixed you should file a complaint with the New Jersey Attorney General's office. Even if you don't get any monetary satisfaction from them this guy may think twice before doing another job like this. The NJ AG's office has a special unit that deals with plumbing and heating problems.

Erich_3

Do it Right

Why don't you send Clammy an e-mail. He knows what he is doing with steam. You do not want to make the same mistake twice. Do it right the first time.

clammy

taken care of

Went there today and yes there lots of piping issues but as always the cut in was set to 3 and diff to 3 so there's your rumbling and main vent gushng and all the dirt and gunk in the sight glass ,i lowered the pressurtrol and advised them to give me a buss in a few weeks to give it a good water side cleaning and skimming ,even though the piping is not correct and water line is not surging i don't think a re pipe will be in order since all seems well.peace and good luck clammy