Pipe sweating techniques

Rocky_3

Pro Press! ;-)

Rock

Indysteamer

Pipe sweating techniques

I have been installing boilers mainly hot water for a few years now. I have learned tons from this site. I often check out some of your installation pics and am amazed at how clean your pipes look.

How do you keep solder from running down pipes on occasion?
I use a B-tank #95 flux etc. Don't have leaks very often but my joints don't look near as perfect as most of the ones I see on this site. Seems like I always have a little solder running here or dripping there. I do wipe down joints with a damp rag.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Unknown

dry rag

Try wiping with a dry 100% cotton rag while the solder is still melted. This will wipe off the beads and give you a smooth looking joint. The wet rag will harden the solder and not allow you to smoothe the bumps out.

clammy

be cheap with the flux and solder

As i was taught you don,t need alot of flux nor alot of solder ,The rule i use on smaller pipe up to about 1 1/2 is if your soldering a 1/2 pipe you should use no more then a 1/2 solder and after heating my joint i wipe the bubbling flux then re apply heat and touch the joint with solder and that's it then of course spray the joint with windex or spray nine and wipe off good this way all the residule flux will not green the joint later .on another point don,t over heat your joint we call a perfect joint a wedding band and it is the sign of some one who not just tossing stuff in peace and good luck clammy

Unknown

I've heard

that some will heat the fitting and wipe off the excess flux before soldering the pipe .

I use the bare minimum of flux , applied only to the outside of the pipe or slip fitting . I'll work the solder to the side of the fitting not showing towards the front , so more than likely if theres a drip it'll be hidden . Then I use steel wool to flick any excess away .

Practice makes perfect and you'll be sweating without drips in no time .

Indysteamer

thanks for replies. I will try all suggestions. I think part of my problem is I tend to use to much solder and the reason why is I'm afraid I'm going to have a leak. There is nothing worse to me as filling and purging a system at the end of a job only to have a leaking fitting.

MikeyB

wiping

Try pre-fabing as much of your work on a tri-pod, also wear those cheap brown cloth gloves for wiping, works well for me

Scott OB

Solder

I've worked with many master plumbers,the one who taught me the most about sweating pipe always sands the joint after he sweats it.It removes all flux,leaves a nice finish.He is also a brown jersey glove guy from Jersey.Best plumber I know!!

hot_rod

make sure your brown gloves..

are cotton, not the cheesey nylon blends. Else wise you end up with melted gloves and brown coated joints.

Very little flux, use the Eatherton "flux sponge" to prevent over fluxing.

Heat at the base of the fitting, the solder will draw into the warmest spot, even uphill.

Don't over heat, as soon as the solder melts, remove the flame.

Water soluable fluxes tend to burn and turn black when overheated. Their burn point is very close to the melting point of non lead solders, very little error room. 95-5 melts at an even higher temperature and takes addition care to not burn the flux.

Stop the process if the flux turns black, dis assemble, re-clean and start over. Burned flux leads to bad and messy joints.

A wet rag or wet scotch pad will clean up the fittings after they cool down, the residual flux as the cleaning agent.

Use a Harris Bridgit for lose fittings, if fills nicely.

Over soldering fills the pipes, zone valves, pumps, etc with solder balls. possibly the main cause of "ghost flows"

hr

The Boiler Dr.

Clean Solder Joints

Many years ago when everything was done in copper, my father taught me to use solder and past sparingly. AS Clammy said no more wire than the nominal pipe diameter for pressure joints - no more than 1/2 nominal for DWV joints (yeah my age is showing) He used to count the number of joints and measure out the solder - plus 10%. If I ran out of solder, I had to "buy more". Sure taught me conservation and attention to detail!! I taught many apprenti this method. Some still bring up "my stoopid rule of solder" in good natured conversation. They ALL agree it has served them well over the years - especially now with the ever increasing cost of materials.
Cotton gloves were the enhanced version of wiping joints - my Dad used bare hands and a cotton rag tied to his "Prestolite" handle for wiping - I could never get the hang of that!
Thanks for the fond memories of working with Dad!

Indysteamer

thanks for the tips. The guy that taught me told me this. Make sure the pipe is clean and then clean it some more. Flux and solder are a lot cheaper than a water leak so don't be shy with it. So... I have always done it this way -- pipes don't leak but sometimes they sure don't look very pretty. Lately I have been trying to get my soldered joints to look more like I see on this site but no matter how careful I am still not even close.

Now I definitely have several things I can try!

bob young

o- rings

pro-pres is especially great if you lack talent. o rings & rubber is less reliable than metal. and the fittings are not cost efficient.

JohnNY

The NYC Master Plumber's licensing exam...

...requires soldering 1/2" through 3" pipe and fittings. The joints are randomly selected and cut open, separating the fittings from the pipe. When you see what your split-open joints look like, you see what you've been doing wrong and gives you foresight into what's going to happen when you apply heat and solder to the joint.

Everybody uses too much flux.





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bob young

soldering techniques

the perfect joint was supposably made with a bronze flag flo braze fitting & t.p. { threadless copper pipe ] with a silver solder ring inserted in a groove machined in the fitting. you simply pulled the ring with your torch * when the silver appeared on the face of the fitting that was it. no additional silver was needed. that was an approved joint x-rayed by navy inspectors on naval warships. it proved how little solder was actually needed to make a joint. additional silver forming a " beveled type plumbers joint " was prohibited.

bb_10

Time is money

and you will save plenty with press fittings. The larger the project the more time you will save. Most of the large mechanical contractors are using Pro-Press because it gets the job done faster, and with no leaks.

The o-ring is not in the direct flow of the water, it's a secondary seal.

As for talent, you still need to know what you are doing. It's another tool in your bag of tricks.

bb

JK_3

NYC master plumber

John is correct about cutting open the joints to see your mistakes. The way that works best for me and that I teach my guys is: (1) only clean the pipe as far as the fitting will seat plus 1/16" as solder will not stick to uncleaned pipe.(2) minimal flux(so thin so that it can hardly be seen)only on the cleaned area. (3) heat the deepest part of the fitting just untill the flux runs or bubbles.(4)Before applying solder wipe with dry cotton cloth. (5)Heat again at the deepest part of the fitting applying solder at the point furthest from your flame untill solder begins to run then remove flame. (6) wipe immidiatly with dry cotton cloth. With a little practice you should end up with perfect solder joints. Note to JohnNY: Thank you for the lead on fleetmatics. I am very pleased so far.

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Kool Rod

Thanks everyone! I got a lot out of this thread and just wanted to bump it back to the top in case anyone missed it.

billtwocase

solder

Tip-sand only the depth of the joint you are soldering, very little flux. solder will follw where the acid do go, and dry rag to wipe solder. I only use Silverbrite 95/5. I wouldn't know what to do with 50/50 now if you paid me, which you can still use on heating pipes only. peace

billtwocase

less is more

just my last 2 cents on this, less is more. Have you ever picked solder out of a cartrige circ., or found it somewhere in the system like Taco z/v seats? the more solder you feed into a joint, the more it will take. Still like the old school way- copper/solder. peace

billtwocase

Amen Bob

Andrew Hagen_4

Soldering

I will second Hot Rod's suggestion of Harris Bridgit Nickel Bearing Solder,/a>. It is the only solder I will use. Nokorode flux is best. I wear a Wells Lamont "Handy Andy" yellow glove on my right hand (I am right-handed) to brush away any drips that begin to form.

I am not a pro press fan. Time will tell.

[Deleted User]

or, silver solder like a/c refer;

no flux necessary, and when you get that process down, it won't be 'running' anywhere, and you will never have a leak

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

I Use

Silva Brite 100 95/5 solder, it is pretty thick and very few leaks. I also use very little flux, but once in a while you still have solder running down, simply wipe the beads and sand the remaining solder to the copper, no one will ever know. It is a good idea to test with air before filling with water, it is much easier to re solder a leaker.
I agree with Bob, a soldered joint will last the life of the piping, with ProPress I would worry about the O-rings in ten or twenty years.


Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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Unknown

Just recently tried,,,

Silvabrite after YEARS of using Stabrite. I was very pleased with how well it flowed. I've been using the "pretinning" Nokorode with the powdered solder in it forever too. You know the joint is just hot enough when you see the flux turn silver, meaning the powdered solder has melted. I do as many as I can on the tripod. I also do a visual for gaps and if I see one I wait till the joint cools, clean it up at the gap spot, reflux just that area and then heat and touch up only that area. I also like Staybrite #8 for the tough ones. #8 has a lower melting point than regular Stabrite so if I'm having trouble sealing a joint with regular I let it cool and then hit it with the #8. It will melt and fill the gap before the regular does. I've never been a wiper. If I see a drip I don't like I flick it off with the end of my solder wire before it solidifies. And, if all else fails after a couple tries, I take the joint apart, reclean, reflux and try again. After a while you can usually tell which ones are going to seal and which ones you have to take apart just by looking at them. I also prefer to use air to test my systems before I put any liquid in them. Makes for a much easier fix if you have a leaker.

[Deleted User]

absolutely pressure-test

with 'air'. i use nitrogen bec it's faster that a compressor

Unknown

I use air,,,

cause it's cheaper.

I definitely use nitrogen when I'm doing refrigerant circuits though.

cowie_4

soldering tips

I heat up the fitting then wipe with a dry sponge to clean up the flux. The solder will follow the flux so if the flux runs down the pipe, so will the solder. Also, only apply as much heat as needed.
Cowie.

[Deleted User]

def cheaper,

but i'm very impatient, and since it's near mandatory for refer lines, i've become 'spoiled' from doing those

Unknown

Last company I worked for

used CO2 for reefer lines because it was cheaper than nitrogen. I never liked it because it will expand and contract with temp change which made the 24 hour pressure tests useless. We had a few "discussions" about it. I was so happy the day I went off on my own and could use nitrogen again. I stopped using nitrogen for water systems about the same time I started paying for it myself. Or just shortly afterwards. lol..

[Deleted User]

CO2?! yikes!

they justified it bec it was cheaper? did they consider the excellent drying effect of nitrogen/the time-saving cost of evacuation?

Unknown

Nope,,,

cheaper was all they considered or cared about. I used to go to a soda service place to get the tanks filled.

Indysteamer

How do you guys pressurize boilers with nitrogen? This is one thing I love about doing a/c work because I know very quickly if I have any leaks. Where with boilers I have had a couple of occasions where a fitting didn't start leaking until I had it up to temperature (what a pain). Being able to pressurize a boiler install with Nitrogen would be great. How do you guys do this? I have never seen anyone put any type of schraeder valve on boiler piping?

john p_2

Soldering is basic science at its best. Heat rises always! Start with the lowest joints and work your way up. And as for the actual soldering, the solder goes where you point the heat so naturally hold torch to the back of the cup on the fitting. Was schooled 95/5 and cap with 50/50 for process piping and it is still what works best. On some jobs we are being given watersafe in place of 95/5...I dont agree with this cause the 50/50 doesnt cap on top of it. As for pro-press it is for speed (and speed kills, always)and talentless, low paid, no skilled,individuals who could care less about what they are installing or how it looks!

[Deleted User]

i wouldn't include the boiler,

but a hose bib fitting to schrader is real simple, then to piping drain

Unknown

Lead

They said the same thing about lead wiping and lead joints. :-)

"it is for speed and talentless, low paid, no skilled,individuals who could care less about what they are installing or how it looks!"

[Deleted User]

talentless, low paid, no skilled,individuals who could care less

boy are you ever full of yourself and out of touch with the overall industry. jillions of plumbers don't solder, or know how to, or care bec their work is usually pvc etc

maybe i could call you a talentless, low paid, no skilled, individual who could care less bec you can't pack and pour ci joints like i can

Unknown

I do,,,

Just don't go over 30 psi and pop the safety. I pressurize and leave it for a while to see if it loses. If it does I repressurize and start soaping up joints looking for bubbles. Someone out there makes a little air test thingie that is a 3/4" fitting with a gauge port and a tire fill type valve. It's chrome, don't know the mfg off the top of my head.

scott markle_2

If heat always rises "the earth would need to be on top of the sun to stay warm".
RB

Hot air rises.

[Deleted User]

actually, let me clarify

i wouldn't pressurize a large boiler with nitrogen

yeah, the chrome thingie; there's one somewhere at the shop

[Deleted User]

heat always rises, eventually

and and after it changes 'state'. then it becomes another potential type of energy; wind

Jim Bennett

Pro press

I've been in this business 30 years now and can sweat large diameter pipe with the best of them.

Pro Press defiantly has it's place, especially in an industrial repair applications where it is difficult to stop all water flow and down time has to be kept at a minimum.

I am not talentless, low paid or unskilled. Be cautious when painting with a broad brush.