pics of my inherited problem child

Jim_64

what's wrong?

and according to weil's steve stoltz, they say that despite ziegenthaler et al p/s boiler loop piping/pump, they don't think that it's necessary

Jim_64

pics of my inherited problem child

yesterday's service call was for the 2nd flr being too hot, even wih the stat set at 60. and this is the second call for this specific problem on a 50ish deg day. the 1st solution, by another, on last month's warm day was to change the location and setting of the ots. the ots was def mounted in the wrong place, but didn't cure the problem. and the other also noticed that the return for that circuit was hotter than the supply, even with the supply pump off/no call. therefore, the 2 spring checks were installed in an effort to stop suspected reverse migration and/or conduction from the boiler's 24/7 return pump

enter me; 'fresh' brain with erased, preconceived notions regarding solutions to problems.
upon greeting the customer, forget the 2nd flr/too much heat, he tells me that he had no heat this morning and did a manual reset on the ultra 3. checked the error codes; same-ol-same-ol. flow/auto reset, sensor/manual reset. way back; old, 2 pipe, gravity/radiator system for the 1st flr only, 20+yrs ago, converted to forced, baseboard/ convector, and then additions of 1 pipe baseboard to back of house and 2nd floor convectors. 3 seperate zones/
stats/pumpsing to boiler. and as you can see, now pumping away with the addition of the ultra

so, i start hand-checking the temp of the pipe from the manifold toward the pump. manifold very hot, 8" out, hand-washing hot. and as i continue out, past the pump, noticing the teed risers, only warm; 10', 20', but at 30', closer to the return manifold, getting very warm. and a little further toward another set of risers, it's getting hot. and as i come off of that last set of hot risers, and getting closer to the return manifold, it's even hotter. hmmm, let's do it again with a flashlight. 1st set of risers; what's this? a b&g monoflow tee. bingo! another one at the next set of risers, and then another one at the next set. checking installation direction;
wrong riser leg for pumping away. and then upon finding 3-4 more monos in the other piping direction, same circuit, some were installed 'backward', even for pumping to, regarding flow arrows/red rings. and all of them were after-thoughts due to the evidence/couplings, on all of them

monday, i'll be preparing a quote for new monos, or, should i just use regular tees and space them at the 'less than 12"' rule? the down-side i see to regular tees at less than 12" is that i'd end up with extra piping to get back to the original distance at the risers

Jim_64

pics of my inherited problem child

yesterday's service call was for the 2nd flr being too hot, even wih the stat set at 60. and this is the second call for this specific problem on a 50ish deg day. the 1st solution, by another, on last month's warm day was to change the location and setting of the ots. the ots was def mounted in the wrong place, but didn't cure the problem. and the other also noticed that the return for that circuit was hotter than the supply, even with the supply pump off/no call. therefore, the 2 spring checks were installed in an effort to stop suspected reverse migration and/or conduction from the boiler's 24/7 return pump

enter me; 'fresh' brain with erased, preconceived notions regarding solutions to problems.
upon greeting the customer, forget the 2nd flr/too much heat, he tells me that he had no heat this morning and did a manual reset on the ultra 3. checked the error codes; same-ol-same-ol. flow/auto reset, sensor/manual reset. way back; old, 2 pipe, gravity/radiator system for the 1st flr only, 20+yrs ago, converted to forced, baseboard/ convector, and then additions of 1 pipe baseboard to back of house and 2nd floor convectors. 3 seperate zones/
stats/pumpsing to boiler. and as you can see, now pumping away with the addition of the ultra

so, i start hand-checking the temp of the pipe from the manifold toward the pump. manifold very hot, 8" out, hand-washing hot. and as i continue out, past the pump, noticing the teed risers, only warm; 10', 20', but at 30', closer to the return manifold, getting very warm. and a little further toward another set of risers, it's getting hot. and as i come off of that last set of hot risers, and getting closer to the return manifold, it's even hotter. hmmm, let's do it again with a flashlight. 1st set of risers; what's this? a b&g monoflow tee. bingo! another one at the next set of risers, and then another one at the next set. checking installation direction;
wrong riser leg for pumping away. and then upon finding 3-4 more monos in the other piping direction, same circuit, some were installed 'backward', even for pumping to, regarding flow arrows/red rings. and all of them were after-thoughts due to the evidence/couplings, on all of them

monday, i'll be preparing a quote for new monos, or, should i just use regular tees and space them at the 'less than 12"' rule? the down-side i see to regular tees at less than 12" is that i'd end up with extra piping to get back to the original distance at the risers

Unknown

I'm sure

I'm sure others will chime in, at my first look, the red B&G pumps are installed wrong. Is there P/S system on boiler loop?

jim s_2

Pumps

should have their motors on the horizontal not pointing up.

Jim_64

good point, but taco says;

"When we speak of mounting, we are referring to the motor or motor shaft part of the pump. This motor part should be in a horizontal position (parallel with the floor), with the capacitor box on top or either side but never under the motor. You can mount the motor in a vertical position ( with the end of the motor facing up to the ceiling), as long as you have more than 20 psi in your system"
http://www.taco-hvac.com/en/products/Wet Rotor Circulators/products.html?current_category=39&view=FAQList#

so, if the system pressure is under 20, what's the outcome to the pump?

Michael Wilson

Jim's Right..

Check the I/O Manual for the B & G Circs...




Just one more thing to put in your quote...

Jim_64

deleted duplicate

Jim_64

and while b&g says;

"The Series LR Circulator can be installed to discharge up or down, horizontally, left or right, but the motor shaft must remain in the horizontal position,"
and while they don't mention the 20+psi that taco mentions, i'd still like to know the reason/outcome if it isn't horizontal?

Mark Eatherton

Dry bearings...

Water lubricated bearings don't like being run dry. They have a tendency to seize up. It's also tough on the motors thrust bearing to run it vertical. It ends up supporting weight it wasn't design to support.

With less than 20 PSI in the system, the upper bearing on a wet rotor Taco pump mounted with the can above the volute is not wetted and will seize.

ME

Unknown

Are you sure

they didn`t use 2 monoflows pointing in different directions for higher resistance circuits?
That sounds like what you`re describing.

As for the pumps, if the motor is mounted vertical(up) it will trap system air. If down the volute could trap air and sediment can enter the can.

Dave

Jim_64

thanks mark

that's the kind of answer i was looking for

do you have any comment on the monos discovery?

Tony_23

Monoflos

On the header in a circ-zoned system ? Totally unnecessary and overly restrictive. Get rid of them.

While you're at it, install some isoflanges.

And, the Ultra's I&O manual is fairly plain about piping styles. It has to do with proper flow through the boiler. If it's not some form of P/S piping, change it so it is. This guy from W-M who told you that its not necessary probably will hear about it this week, since you posted his name.

Don't be a maverick, do it by the book.

Jim_64

tony

you obviously didn't understand what you read.
1) i didn't say anything about monos in the header
2) i didn't do anything as a maverick or by any other way. i "inherited" the problem
3) i have the ultra 3 manual in front of me (page 19/zoning with circs) and it's very plain; there isn't a primary circuit, in the manner of siegenthaler et al, in any of the piping arrangements. and since steve is part of weil, he is representing that book. so, if he 'hears about it', he's hearing what he/weil already knows

Jim_64

two monos?

yeah, i know what you mean, but there's only one per riser, and not always mounted on the '2nd' leg, or in the direction of what would be the flow

could trap system air and/or sediment. hmmm, now that's a good mention, esp air. bec i was told that one of the circuits, i don't remember which, was very hard to clear of air, and the pressure needed to be elevated to get the 'running water' effect to stop. thanks, i'll flip them when i change the tees and see if that helps the bleeding

Tony_23

mike

Then where are the monos you speak of ?

I didn't say you DID something as a maverick, I was advising you not to.

And yes, there is a primary circuit. Look again. Otherwise it would be just like any old CI installation with the zone circs also circulating the boiler at the same time. If the system circs flow the emitters and the header and there is a separate circ for the boiler and the boiler is teed into the header, then it IS P/S.

Your pics of the near-boiler piping are blocked by the vent/intake piping. Maybe another angle would be better.

For a W-M tech rep to state that an Ultra doesn't need some form of P/S piping is unbelievable to me. I stand by my prior statement.

tccoggs_2

Are those dielectric unions at the joints where the airscoop is and the riser???

How long before they start leaking??

Jim_64

the monos

are in the 1-1/4 circuit, best seen as the closest to the camera to the right of the boiler. and since the 1st one is to the right and 'behind' the camera, you can't see it, or the ones further down the line

and as far as the pics in the weil manual, that's just a boiler loop, which is very different from sieg's or holo's primary loops. now, it may be semantics, but i don't think so. and nor does weil, in that, i specifically asked him if it'd be better to de-cap and connect the ends of the supply/return headers and he said no. we don't believe it's necessary and it's a waste of pipe and/or another pump to create a primary loop vs the boiler loop. and i'm certainly not making it up, so believe it or not

Tony_23

The emitter loops

ARE the primary loops in this case, they have the air elimination device.

The "boiler loop" as you call it, is the secondary loop.

Primary/Secondary, it is. You HAVE both loops. You just don't see it the way it is.;) You're over-complicating P/S.

If you de-capped and looped the header and made that the "boiler loop", as you call it, and went with close tees off that to the emitter loops it would still be P/S. Just that the boiler would be in the primary loop and the boiler circ would be the primary loop circ as well.

Jim_64

yes, dielecs

and i have a similar arrangement with them on an installation that i did 2yrs ago and not a drop out of them. and if it's the high temp effect on the isolation gasket and o-ring, they're rated to 350degs

Jim_64

i have to disagree t

having the air scrubber doesn't make it the primary loop, bec there's no flow past the scrubber until a circuit calls. and saying that it is, as is, would say that there are 3 primary loops, and that doesn't make any sense. but connecting the ends, along with the scoop would make it a primary loop with the 3 others as the secondaries. and since it has the supplies and returns on opposite sides like the converted gravity system that it is, and it doesn't fit the layouts of holo, sieg and the ibr guide of the hydronics institute, i say it isn't a p/s system.
and, we can agree to disagree bec i'm not here for the i'm right/i win, you're wrong/you lose

Tony_23

OK

but there's no flow through the boiler when there's no call for heat either

If you can't see the fact that there's two loops, and that's what it takes to have P/S, then that's fine.

Jim_64

ok

but what i can see is that there aren't two loops, bec when there's no call for any zone, that 'primary', boiler circ loop is simply passing water through the boiler, and there's no flow through the scrubber or into the headers. and the converted pic is exactly what's there, and it's called that because that's the demonstrable fact of a converted system and not a p/s system

Mark Eatherton

Sorry mike...

I was between homes and missed your question.

QUite frankly, the picture are way to busy to be able to make a call. Can you generate a simple line drawing showing where the venturi tees are located at?

That will help clarify my minds eye.

Something as simple as MS Paint will work. Nothing fancy.

ME

Tony_23

???

Your boiler circ runs w/o a call for heat ?

Jim_64

boiler circ runs w/o a call for heat?

correct, and that's about to change, upon steve's suggestion, when the other changes are made

Jim_64

no sweat ME

i don't have paint on this machine, so i hope this will do.
and, i can't recall the exact order/locations of the mono supply/returns, or where they literally reversed the direction of the monos

Tony_23

Ahhh

You DO have a beauty on your hands

Sounds like my world. Get under-quoted by a couple hundred, by an inexperienced, illiterate guy with a station wagon. get berated 2 years later because it takes a couple g's to straighten it out.

Jim_64

and......

5 minutes on the phone with steve stoltz/weil today solved the perpetual running boiler pump problem; incorrect wiring

Tony_23

Hmmm

Don't you have the manual ?

Jim_64

do i have a manual?

yes, and you know that from one of my previous posts. but my misinformation on the control/operation of this type of boiler, was based on another's misinformation on this type of boiler