Triangle Tube 100 w/o primary/secondary??

Craig Benson

Looking for input on a system design for a new home I am building for myself. I have posted some of the specs on a thread "Triangle Tube not 'Pumping Away'??" previously on this forum but the basics are 1664sf heated slab basement, 1900sf Warmboard radiant subfloor main level. 3 zones upstairs, one zone downstairs basement slab and cooler water temp requirement.

Based on the quotes I have received from the nearest hydronics specialists 250 miles from my site, I will have to do the design and installation of the system by myself. I have not had a quote for less than $15K just for boiler, indirect and pumping "module" mounted on my basement wall with me providing all the tubing and manifolds, T-stat wiring, boiler gas and flue connections and system fill. I simply cannot afford that in my budget at this stage of construction and will be doing the install myself as a result. With that stated, here is my plan:

I am leaning towards a Triangle Tube PS110 with the integrated system circulator - a Grundfos 15-58

My design calcs are based on the Uponor ADS software and at a 15 degree delta T with zone valves my design calls for 6.0gpm @ 6.8ft head loss. All piping and manifold products are Uponor/Wirsbo.

Based on these figures is it realistic to simply build a primary loop with closely spaced supply and return tees with zone valves and provide a 3-way tempering valve for the single low temp zone?

Controls will be either Honneywell, Grundfos, or Wirsbo based on the Triangle Tube company schematic.
With the combined head loss of the 1" primary piping, Ells, Tees, pressure bypass, etc I think I am still well within the capabilities of the 15-58 internal circulator.

Am I being too simplistic with this design? I will be the sole troubleshooter and system maintenance provider for the life of the system.

I need to get the heat on for the tape and texture crews and have procrastiniated long enough and need to get going with something in the next week. I would also be very interested in paying for consulting and design services to any licensed heating/hydronics professionals for the design aspects of this as well.

Thank you for your time and input.

Mark Custis

I just looked at

the installation manual page 16 gives you your answer. They say if not p/s pipe you need to add a differential by-pass. So make it simple and do it their way.

http://66.104.7.230/triangletube/documents/1/Prestige Solo_110 Manual.pdf

tim smith

What's your smallest zone?? Depending on this will

tell you whether you can do primary only or need an pd bypass. May want to look at the Wilo eco pump if it's curve will fit.

Tony_23

???

"Based on these figures is it realistic to simply build a primary loop with closely spaced supply and return tees with zone valves and provide a 3-way tempering valve for the single low temp zone?"

That won't work. Close tees are for P/S piping. ZV's won't get any circulation from close tees.

Craig Benson

I am not familiar with the Wilo ECO series - is that a variable speed like the 15-42 Miximizer or Taco Delta T circulator?

Smallest zone is kitchen/dining/mudroom at 1.2gpm @3.5ft head and then beds/baths zone at 1.5gpm @ 1ft. There is a good possibility that these are the two zones most likely to have a call for heat. Basement is ICF and great room also has woodstove for cheaper heat. Fuel source is $$$LP.

From the manual:
Page 19 - System Piping - Through Boiler
In applications in which primary/secondary
piping is not utilized and the system is zoned
with zone valves a circulator could pump
through the boiler and system directly. When
pumping through with more than one zone, a
pressure differential bypass valve is required to
avoid dead heading the pump through the post
pump feature of the control. Consult Fig. 11
and 12 page 22 for piping diagrams and Graph
2 on page 68 for proper circulator sizing.

Attached is my system design from the ADS software, at this point I am also considering a Solo 60. I am not opposed to a P/S piping arrangement it doesn't add that much complexity. Would I be better off to spend the money for the variable speed circ pumps to help maintain spec flow when only one or two small zones are calling for heat?

Could I swap out the internal 15-58 with a 15-42VS? I could always use the 15-58 for the indirect loop.

Would the TT factory rep give me the time of day not being a licensed plumber?

Thanks!

Craig Benson

Okay - Guess I need to read up a little more from my library of hydronics books. Will it work to bring the returns together downstream of the last zone in the area of the basement zone manifold that needs the 3-way tempering valve?

I'll try to sketch my design and post it later tonite.

Thanks!

Mark Custis

Craig

If you buy into the p/s piping consider this:

The Wilo stratus series use ECM motors to control delta P.

Their web site is under construction so there is not much there. Use an ECM circulater to pump the primary loop. It will ramp up and down as the zones call. Let the on board pump do it job, moving heat in and out of the loops. We know that will work.

Craig Benson

No problem with P/S

I buy into the primary/secondary concept whole-heartedly. I was just wondering if a ultra-simple piping schematic would work for my application.

I also buy into the variable pumping idea as well, it is the difference between a $70 15-58 and a $350+ variable speed circulator.

I will read up on the Wilo -

With regards to the P/S arrangement, are the Triangle Tube factory diagrams in the manual mostly correct or are there some small modifications to component placement that would work better?

I am basically working off of page 23 Fig13 - CH Sytem Piping - Radiant/low temp with the addition of the indirect tank and a 3-way valve on the basement zone. (Fig8 - pg20)

When the indirect calls for heat, the boiler will fire at full temp and btu and then modulate back down to set or outdoor reset temp, correct? The flow check built into the system circ will prevent that 180 degree water from entering the zones, correct? Should I install and additional flow check on the return side as well?

Thanks for your patience with this project and this dumb farmer. I pump water all summer long in my 'real' job - just not this small of an amount! 100hp 3-phase motors on 1500gpm pumps are more along the lines of my expertise. If only we had "hot" groundwater!

tim smith

You could make one of the zones a three way valve and

use the wilo eco pump w/ pressure differential control set for min flow rate through boiler. This would eliminate the pd bypass valve and work well in this application, no p/s piping then.... Tim

Craig Benson

Good WILO link or source?

So you suggest replacing internal 15-58 with a Wilo and going w/o the secondary loop?

Have a better link or info source on the WILO, factory website doesn't seem to provide much info. Exactly which series are we referring to as well?

Is this better than the Taco or Grundfos?

tim smith

Well, it has delta p which is a better solution I feel for this

application. I just think this may be a vialbe energy efficient method. Will see what others weigh in with. Tim

tim smith

here is a possible layout for this type of system. I will be

interested in others chiming in on this one with ideas/recommendations. Lets see what happens. See attachment. also here is a link to the stratos eco http://www.wilo-na.com/cps/rde/xchg/ca-en/layout.xsl/1927.htm

Mark Custis

In my next life

I want to be a drywall paster.

Craig: You need heat so the drywallers can make their mess?

You want to do this once?

Your nearest support is 250 miles away?

You can do pump curves?

You think the curve on the TT will do the system?

Your are going to a a three way mixer to the lower temp in slab?

How are you going to control the warmboard?

Off the TT control?

Tony_23

Uh

Tim,are you prepared for the fallout if things go south and the ECO isn't approved by the factory ?

Craig, if all your zones could be run at the same temp and that temp was under 140*F, you wouldn't need P/S or any mixing valves. A Pd bypass would be the simple way. As far as the 180 water from a DHW call hitting your CH zones, setting the post-purge for a couple of minutes or so will bring it down to tank temp. At least close enough not to worry about it.

tim smith

Tony, as I noted on \"idea\" drawing, this would have to

be ran by factory first. Tim

Unknown

I can't see replacing an internal pump with a wilo.

add a bypass. save the wilo for systems that don't come already piped with a modest 90 watt circulator that can handle all of your needs for already modest electrical usage.

Craig Benson

Nothing like catering to the rockers...but it's time for heat

Yes, once would be ideal. A basic system to build upon with more technology and features as I gain operating knowledge of the system is more like what I am after at this point.

Nearest radiant specialist is 250 miles one way. There may be support available from some shops 150 miles away, but no design and warranty of materials and installation w/o huge up-front costs. My materials are delivered from a Ferguson store 80 miles away. I primarily deal with suppliers in the Western Nevada area. I have a couple more leads to follow up on with professionals tomorrow.

I understand pump curves, I know head and friction loss. We irrigate 2500 acres of hay through center pivot irrigation systems. Pumping water is my livelihood. Using electricity to do it is also a necessity.

The Grundfos handbook and TT literature show that the entire system falls within the 15-58 curves. I'm not sure the Triangle Tube will be the boiler I go with, may look into Peerless Purefire as well.

Slab calls for 86 degree supply, Warmboard master bedroom loop over crawlspace foundation calls for 128 degrees. Other Warmboard call for around 118 I believe. All this info is in the attached .pdf file above.

I have in mind (3) 2-wire T-stats corresponding to Warmboard zones and one T-stat in the basement for that zone. At this point I do not with to go with loop actuators but may look into that in the future to separate baths from beds.

These T-stats I plan to wire to a zone control/pump relay or direct wire to zone valves and boiler control board. I have two schematics for those controls I plan to follow.

I will be assisted by our commercial/irrigation electrician and am fairly proficient in mechanical aspects of this project. I am comfortable simply following the schematics provided in the boiler mfg literature.

My main goal in this post was to determine whether or not it was feasible/worthwhile to simplify the system down to a primary loop using factory installed equipment.

If I go with the primary/secondary piping, I then question the ability of most pumps to provide design flow in a single zone call for heat.

Mark Custis

Then I will

do all I can to help from OHIO.

Rockers?

I just love radiant heat.

I looked at the pdfs on the design they look good.

You will do what you want to do how can I help?

Craig Benson

Rockers - as in sheetrockers - maybe my guys fancy themselves rockstars...

I believe that the ADS design contains as much detail as possible. The only thing not 100% is the Warmboard vs QuikTrak installation. Not sure how that may affect the numbers.

Attached is my feeble attempt at a design sketch. If my piping layout is completely bogus please let me know. I will be reading up on the Holohan and Steigenthaler books I've got and try to educate myself some more tonite.

I am not against P/S - just want to find a secondary pump that will accomodate the small zones. I feel that the 15-58s will overpump, especially with a single zone call. Not 100% sure the TT110 will modulate low enough either for that matter. It was suggested by (3) suppliers, they all suggested a 140 and 80 or 120gal indirect tank too. Going to call about a Peerless Purefire 80 tomorrow as well as touch base with a family friend who kept my Grandmother's ancient boiler operating for a number of years. Hopefully I will answer some questions rather than bring up new ones.

Will the TT accomodate a design water temp of around 128 or do I need to add an additional temp valve for the Warmboard zones. I seem to understand that the boiler can provide this temp water and ramp up to provide 180 for the indirect. Is this correct?

Sorry to be so dense, any and all help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Uni R_2

Reality check time...

Why are you considering the 110 for a "new" house of that size? The Solo 60 should be more than adequate and uses an external circulator (so you could use the Wilo).

I have a 110 in a larger older house than yours that was built by a drunk stone smith and I could probably heat the houses on both sides of me.

The 110 only modulates down to 38 MBH or so. I think the manufacturer is fibbing saying 30 MBH. You're building a new home which should have a lower true heating load than 40 MBH (at design - half that for much of the winter) and to compound that you are zoning the load.

scott markle_2

Craig,

Your drawing needs a circ. down stream of your mixing valve. But maybe in reality you don't even need a mix valve.

If you are using a "smart control" like a Tekmar TN4, Warm board and slab could probably be run at the same temperature depending on floor coverings.

P/S piping is important for ensuring minimum boiler flows rates in multi zone systems, should a small zone end up running solo, it might not supply the required flow.

Here is a picture of a recently completed solo 60, six zones, mix of slab and Roth panel. The Tekmar control targets it's water temp based on outdoor temperature and the zone which shows the greatest demand and then predictively on/off regulates the zones with lesser requirements. It also controls the boiler firing rate directly. Works well, although I'm a bit under impressed by how the control handles some of is micro loads, It seems a little over eager to reach target and sometimes overshoots and cycles off. If it had modulated down a bit quicker (or not modulated up so fast) it would have maintained a longer burn.

Patriot supply is good for Wilo. Pex supply is good for Tekmar.

Send me a direct Email I might be interested in getting more involved.

Mark Hunt_6

New Wilo website


Sorry for the confusion!

Here is the link to the new, improved Wilo USA website.

Mark H