Surge Protectors for modern electronic boilers

Perry_2

My thanks to Steve Ebels for starting me in this direction at this time (although I would have gotten their).

How bad can a good electrical surge affect all the modern boilers and their control systems. I think most of you know.

Very few Mfr's build good surge protection into their equipment.

Here is another thing most of you don't know: The "low price" surge protectors sold in all the stores have a limited life, and can die at any time (I've burened out a few), and usually allow some of the spike into the equipment.

Here is a site that sells real surge protectors; and they explain why they are different with full test results.

Not cheap; but niether is a replacement boiler card (or more).

www.brickwall.com

I especially like the "20 amp Panel Mount Unit" - perfect for mounting with a boiler.

Hope this helps ya all...

Perry

Mark Hunt

Thanks Perry!!


Darin and I have been talking about this for some time now but we have never been able to get good info on the surge protectors.

Thanks for the link.

Mark H

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Solarstar

I know this had been discussed earlier in one of the posts on the Vitodens 200. Was this a surge protector or an Isolation transformer you are looking for OR both????

Perry_2

There are differences

A surge protector and an isolation transformer do perform somewhat different task - although an isolation transformer is a fair surge protector.

I always wondered why most "surge" protectors did not start out with an isolation transformer. They are relatively cheap.

I suspect the answer is that a good enough surge will fry the isolation transformer. I.e., you need to protect the isolation transformer.

Utilities certainly work to protect their transformers - and even then they often have to replace some local distribution (pole) transformes after a major lightning storm.

So, if I'm buying a Vitodens 200; I'm going to put really good surge protection on it. Should I add an isolation transformer. Perhaps; but with the surge protectors in the listed link I suspect there is nothing much to be gained. They base a large bit of their function on an inductance coil. Transformers also have inductor coils (inherent with their design).

But, it's a great question - one I'll aks them.

Perry

Robert O'Brien

Viessmann

recommends the power module for Vitodens 200 be plugged into some type of surge protector which I believe they sell although not manufactured by them. I think the electronics need a "clean break" when voltage drops below the min operating level.

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LarryC

Isolation Transformers

True 1:1 isolation transformers might help, but to be NEC compliant you need to reference one side of the secondary to earth. Without this reference, the secodary could be 10,000 V on one side and 10,120 V on the other side. Still 120 V between them but 10,000 V between the secondary and earth. I don't believe most furnaces are set up for this kind of stress.

A good quality whole house surge suppressor is a good start. Along with a good grounding system and good bonding between the electical and metal plumbing systems.

Larry

ALH_4

Power Conditioner

Viessmann recommends a Panamax Power Conditioner for the Vitodens. They also say a battery backup such as an APC UPS will work on a small Vitodens for a short period of time.

-Andrew

Perry_2

What most people do not know about surges is that...

lightning strikes are the least of your concerns.

Most electical surges are from appliances turining on and off, utility distribuiton swithcing, etc. Your house sees a routine cascade of such surges.

Lightning strikes in the area are usually shunted to ground by a utility lightning arrestor (the flicker of the lights) that limits the surge.

A direct lightning hit on the wiring between your house and the utility transformer are extreemely rare - and will fry almost any normal surge protector and almost all electronics in the house. At that point you need a lighning arrestor.

MOV surge protectors will not respond to the lower level ones (initially), letting them through. Damage to electronics slowly accumulates - and componenets eventually fail.

MOV surge protectors will work to limit higher surges - but degrade in the process; and have a limited effective life. How many people routinely replace their surge protectors (every couple of years...).

The beauty of the Brickwall system is that it stops all of those lessor surges dead in their tracks...

In another forum I have recieved feedback from an electrical engineer that in a really very large surge a good MOV bases system will likely perform better (assuming it is not degraded)on that surge; but he admits that the inductor based systems like the Brickwall system is best for all the routine day to day surges that exist in the power system. He also admits the aging problem with the MOV based systems and that you cannot tell when they need replacing untill it is too late.

Best of both worlds - plug in a MOV based surge protector to the outlet of the Brickwall system. The Brickwall will protect from all the routine surges - and protect the life of the MOV based system. If an extreemly large surge gets through the Brickwall - the MOV system kicks into place.

Perry

ALH_4

Brown-outs

Actually most of the problems I have seen with the Vitodens were related to brown-outs, not surges. Cutting the power cleanly at 90V took care of the problems.

-Andrew

Perry_2

Undervoltage is a different problem - and the realm of the UPS

We rarely suffer from brownouts in our area; but I understand they are common in the NE and the Far West.

All equipment is affected by undervoltage, unless they have installed a universal power supply that can automatically adjust voltage as needed (rare in most applications - but I have a piece of "Travel" medical gear like that: Plug it into 50 or 60 cycles, and a wide range of voltages and it purrs like a champ - all you need is the right plug adapter for wherever in the world you are).

I had also been thinking of adding a high end universal power supply (sine wave output - and automatic voltage adjustment). That helps out on those "momentary" outages which would otherwise shut the boiler down; requiring restart. Only question is: how big do I make it. Buy a big enough one and the boiler and circulator would run for a day or more without power (of course, at that level you are spending thousands). Tiss a though... Where to draw the line... $600 or $6000 - or somewhere in between.

Perry

ALH_4

Brownouts

Yes, in the more remote areas of Montana we have chronic, almost daily, undervoltage problems. The Panamax has effectively eliminated the need to restart the boiler in these instances.

-Andrew

Perry_2

Say what?

Andrew:

The Panamax model you reference is only a noise and surge protector. It does not adjust voltage in the case of undervoltage.

That does not mean that it does not prevent your boiler from tripping. Surges and spikes can trip equipment - and the Panamax surge protector will help in that case - up to the point that it wears out.

If you have undervoltage problems you need a UPS with voltake correction.

Perry

ALH_4

Voltage

Didnt mean to imply it changed the voltage in any way. It just needs to shut the boiler off if the voltage drops too low and turn it on when it is in the acceptable range again.

-Andrew

Brad White_116

My intention

is to install an APC Back-Ups 700 which will power about 200 Watts for a reasonable amount of time to cover transient spikes or a brown-out but will handle twice that for shorter periods.

Does anyone have any comments? I mean, $140 will offer a lot of protection value in my book.


http://apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BP700UC&total_watts=200


Our office is specifying similar items to protect the many electronic components now available in the simplest devices. A boiler control panel for one example.

Perry_2

Is it large enough?

Brad:

The first thing to do is check to see how large of a UPS you need.

There are 3 factors:

VA: (Volts x Amps) of the equipment

Watts: (Actual Power used by the equipment)

Desired run time:

Now my looking at the Vitodens 200 manual says 12 Amps to the power supply. @ 120 Volts, this gives a VA of 1440.

So the first rating of your UPS must be above 1440 - or their is no way the circuits in it will handle the load for more than a little bit (anywhere from seconds to a few minutes depending on what the actual mismatch is).

For the second item: Watts: Most UPS's use a setting of 60% of the VA for how many watts the machine can deliver. That is based on most computer systems where actual wattage is about 55% of the VA rating.

Industrial equipment is different; and it is usually recommended that you get a wattage rating of at least 80% - if not 100% of your VA. Since you will be runing a circulator and air supply blower I would treat this as an industrial example.

Run time: Do you want 5 minutes just to cover momentary losses, or an hour or more (a day). This determines how large the battery (or additional battery packs). The more advanced UPS's allow you to just plug in additional battery packs to the main unit so you don't duplicate control circuits.

A few other things to consider:

I'd want sine wave output as you are driving motors along with computers.

How long do the batteries last? Be sure to ask. You can buy a unit that will give 1 hour when new, but only 35 minutes a year later, and 5 minutes after 2 years. Alternately, you can buy one that you will not need to change batteries as often (and do get one with changable batteries).

Another thing; put a good surge protector in front of the UPS. Interestingly, one of BrickWalls most popular models is sold for the UPS market. Protect those MOV's and other circuts in the UPS.

Perry

LarryC

UPS Battery life

To extend the battery life of the UPS, check the environmental specifications of the system. A mechanical room might be too hot for long life of the system.

Larry

Brad White_116

Thanks, Perry

My intention is primarily to smooth out the bumps in the road, not to give back-up power to run during an outage, although a gentle stop is a good thing.

Yes, I did take into account your V-A assessment. I suppose I could go for a larger unit....

I always buy UPS' with replaceable batteries too. The basement environment will be conditioned but as Larry pointed out, a commercial or institutional boiler room is a different beast, so thanks for that observation, Larry!

Brad