Internet radiant, diy wood boiler, conceptual drawings=!!

S Ebels

Once in a great while I'll run across a customer who realizes they made a mistake and understand that they now have to pay for that mistake in some form or another. Most however are as you say Dave. It's never their fault and they can't get a response or further help from the Internet boys and girls sooooooooo if you touch it, it becomes your fault by default. (Did that make any sense?)
Those are the type I avoid like the plague and I run into them weekly here in wood boiler H---.

I'm think that bailing them out is a dis-service to our trade. If enough of them get mad enough they may figure it out and file a long overdue class action suit against a couple of these companies. Their "systems" are like a cancer in the world of radiant and hydronic heat. The sooner they get "ectomied" the better off the end users will be.

hr

had a look at a homeowner install today

non barrier pex, 3 high head zone pumps, Tarm boiler and buffer tank, no combustion air, pumps installed backwards, cracked pump volutes and 3 way thermostatic connections.


Real nice guy, tried his best. Integration between the prefab component from the two companies, along with conceptual installation drawings and vague reference to appropriate codes for vent and combustion air, Yikes!!

Think I will decline the rebuilt probably entailing several grand worth of parts and labor and have the owner go to travelocity.com and purchase two airline tickets to mail to the owners of the companies he purchased from. They really need to get out in the field and see what happens to their product and designs once the material is installed.

I doubt this is a rare occurence.

While they are here they can install the seperation HX,properly size the pumps to the phantom heat load calc, wire, plumb, purge, vent, determine combustion air requirements, and all those "easily done by a homeowner" tasks.

Might as well pull permits and get inspections while they are at it. Just for liability sake, of course.

hot rod

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jp_2

whos going to fix it?

Hot rod, if you don't fix it who will? if its a yahoo pro then all you "good" guys are made to look bad, by this yahoo. then the PRO's look no different than the internet company to the homeowners.

then his neighbor will put in a FHA system......

I have no problem fixing others mistakes, by the hour, and explain why, makes you look good, and you make the industry look good, and you get more work? Isn't that the whole idea?

frank_25

pics

Ya got something to post so's we all can comment on how well a H.O. can do a job? This way we can show a cheep job and a pro's job to the customer that complains about a price. " Ya want it this way? Then you pay for it."

Plumdog_2

not rare at all

I used to be a Plumbing and Heating Contractor; but now I go look at internet sourced heat systems to see if they can be made to work as promised. And most times they can't at any kind of reasonable cost. Last one gave up completely and put the home up for sale "as is". Anyone contemplating using drawings, advice, and materials sold at discount from a stranger in a far away place had better be real careful.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

I don't know JP

I'm inclined to agree with HR on this issue - at least where certain internet co's are concerned. They (some of them) are getting away with murder and relying on the fact that we're drawn to helping customers. I too won't touch certain internet co's products, designs or methodologies. Let the buyer beware.

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jp_2

so?

this attitude helps your industry?

bury the homeowner for doing something on his own?

don't get me wrong, I wouldn't try to fix a 5/8", 16 OC layout either, but to burn the HO at the stake for trying? makes the PRO looks not so professional but.....

Dave Yates (PAH)

No burning at the stake!

I'm not the one burning the HO. Let's get that straight at the start. It's the internet co doing the burning and the ones I won't get involved with are, in my opinion, doing some very blantant deceptive ads in order to fleece the HO's wallet.

My past experiences with "jumping in" to save-the-day have clearly demonstrated that the HO's are fixated on price and already ticked off. It's a no-win scenario for me. Can I fix the problems? Absolutely. Will the HO's be happy campers in the end. Not likely, because they'll have paid for the system twice.

The contractor who is on site and easily accessible gets the heat for something they did not create. The internet co is able to remain distant and detached and skip-town while laughing all the way to the bank. No thanks.

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ALH_4

I dont know

I dont know about you, but there's nothing I like more than fixing something that's not working correctly. It's probably a fault of mine. Though, that system sounds like it has a few unfixable problems.

In my opinion, the homeowner kissed cheap goodbye when he decided to buy a wood boiler. The internet company did not tell him that, but that doesn't make it any less true. There just is no "cheap" way to correctly integrate an alternative heat source into a traditional heating system. When a homeowner jumps into something like this, he should educate himself a little before making the plunge. It would not take long, from the sound of it, to find the flaws in this particular heating system. Ignorance has its price.

-Andrew

Mike Thomas_2

It's a Game

I got called out to look at a wood boiler install last year. The guy had a nice older WM boiler and baseboard set up. All he really needed was to upgrade the boiler and controls. But no, he wanted a wood boiler. I looked it all over, and started making suggestions. Within the first two ideas, I realized that it was a game to this guy. He wanted to do this without spending any more money. He wanted me to make it work with what he had on hand. The wood boiler guy had given him a figure as to what it would cost, and that was all he was going to spend, because "the guy said it would work". After an hour, I gave up. I left him my card and asked him to let me know how it worked out. I ran into him this spring. His only comment, "It took a lot more wood than I thought it would."

Dave Yates (PAH)

ditto

made perfect sense to me!

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Mark Hunt

It's very easy


for some folks to say that we should jump in and "help" people that have gotten less than what they expected for their money. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. It all comes down a business decision.

I am sure that HR had VERY good reasons for opting out of this particular situation and I certainly would never second guess his decision.

We are not messiahs nor should we be sacrificial lambs as some suggest. When a person spends big bucks for something and that something doesn't work as advertised they have every right to be angry. As long as they focus their anger and disappointment in the right direction, fine. That may be the company that sold the product, OR it could be the customer themselves for not following instructions. The people that know where the trouble started are easier to work with.

Some are angry at everyone and will not be satisfied no matter what you do. "I already paid big money for this, why should I have to pay more?!?!?!". Some systems can't be fixed without completely starting over. I have not come across a customer yet that was willing to go that route. So what choice do I have? Patch it and take **** for dismal performance? Or walk away and wish them good luck?



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Mark Hunt

It's very easy


for some folks to say that we should jump in and "help" people that have gotten less than what they expected for their money. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. It all comes down a business decision.

I am sure that HR had VERY good reasons for opting out of this particular situation and I certainly would never second guess his decision.

We are not messiahs nor should we be sacrificial lambs as some suggest. When a person spends big bucks for something and that something doesn't work as advertised they have every right to be angry. As long as they focus their anger and disappointment in the right direction, fine. That may be the company that sold the product, OR it could be the customer themselves for not following instructions. The people that know where the trouble started are easier to work with.

Some are angry at everyone and will not be satisfied no matter what you do. "I already paid big money for this, why should I have to pay more?!?!?!". Some systems can't be fixed without completely starting over. I have not come across a customer yet that was willing to go that route. So what choice do I have? Patch it and take **** for dismal performance? Or walk away and wish them good luck?

Steve makes a good point, "I'm think that bailing them out is a dis-service to our trade. If enough of them get mad enough they may figure it out and file a long overdue class action suit against a couple of these companies."

I can't add anything to that.

Mark H



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joel_19

Which is why

You should charge an estimate fee just to go out and look at anything even a simple boiler repalcement. We charge a small fee just to show up. Most of the folks with the above problem won't pay . That instantly tells me that they are bottom feeders and not interested in correcting thier problems.

I looked at a nightmare Viessmann put in by a H.O. last fall non barrier tube the whole nine yards . He refused to pay what it would take. I just found out that he never got it fixed. He approched our big Mitsubishi crew cab box truck at a burger joint,asked my 5 guys inside who was the Viessmann "Guru" and then asked them to come fix it on the side. He said he couldn't afford to higher our company but thought one of them would be willing to help him out for less.

Thankfully they told him to pound sand as the company can't afford to have them do side work.

Attention H.O's!! That guy is now on our never call again,do not help,do not revive list. That is just plain lowlife behavior in my book. Anybody can get sucked in by an internet company , fine but then you just swallow the medicine and pay what it takes to get out. Play those games and no one worth highering will be willing to help you.

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A.J.

To sum up

The reason we are all out there working our tails off is not because we are indepently wealthy and can't live with out working for a living. The reason we are out there every day is are family.
It is not that I don't want to help out somebody that is in over his head but as stated earlier it is a no win situation sometimes and not good for my bottom line (better for me family). The guy who buys his system off the Internet to save a a few bucks is doing the same isn't he?
That being said I'm off to work on an estimate for a radiant install were the owner purchased the material from the local hardware store. I think I can keep the water level down. It is still early.