Replacing old system-options?

Christian Egli_2

The only people I know in Hamilton are with Steam Specialties. I do not know if they have a residential arm. They're into paper making machines.

http://www.steamspecrepair.com/feedback.htm

Pat's knowledge will be much broader.

S. Ohio Homeowner

Hi all-

This is my first post here. I would really appreciate any help you can give me.

I am buying a ranch-style house built in 1953. It is about 2700 sq. ft., with an unfinished central basement that I want to finish, and crawl spaces on both ends. If I had to guess, I'd say that the house has 1600 sq. ft. under the basement, 700 square feet under one crawl space, and 400 square feet under the other.

The current HVAC is forced-air. Furnace is a Lennox natural gas model, about 15 yrs. old. AC I can't remember the name of, but it is 4 tons, and appears to be about 40 years old. Ductwork in the crawl spaces is insulated. Both units work, but the airflow from register to register seems to vary quite a bit. Also, there is a lack of returns in rooms above the crawl spaces.

The NG hot water heater is 25 yrs. old, but works.

All of the carpet is going to be taken out and relaced with a combination of hardwood and new carpet (about half and half). The ceramic tile bathroom floors will probably stay put.

I was considering completely replacing these systems for reasons of fuel efficiency, comfort, and relability. I am looking for ideas on the best way to go. From reading on the web, I have been thinking about these alternatives:

1. Replace gas furnace and AC with new units using existing ductwork. Add returns, replace/seal ducts, and add dampers as necessary to get good room to room balance, and possibly zone system. Install a regular tank water heater.

2. Install a hot water boiler and run hydronic lines to the various rooms. Install underfloor tubing, or hot water radiators in the various rooms. Add an indirect water heater tank. Install new AC system in attic (Spacepak?), and run AC ducts to the individual room ceilings.

3. Install a hot water boiler w/domestic hw tank, and install hydro-air equipment in each room. These would also supply AC in conjunction with an outdoor compressor.

4. As above, but use geothermal in lieu of the furnace, boiler or compressor. Isn't it hideously expensive?

I am in the Cincinnati area. How can I find a good contractor who will be familiar with all the options?

Thanks for any replies.

Steamhead (in transit)

I'd do #2

this will give you the best comfort and efficiency.

Check out the Find a Professional page of this site to locate a contractor near you.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

garret_8

Your furnace doesn't sound that old.... any chance you can get past power bills from the current owners?

Unless they're outrageous bills, I'd seriously consider holding off on an upgrade for a while until you get a feel for the place... it's quite likely you'll find something else with more bang for the buck to tackle first... windows, insulation, etc.

J.C.A._3

Hey garret...

Do you...by chance, work for an old New England oil co.? That's the answer I would get from my old employer...it sucked then and it still sucks now.

I think that Frank has the right idea...#2 sounds like the best choice to me also.( any upgrades in isulation shoud be adderssed at or before the time of a new boiler/furnace install...and carried through!) Chris

Ron Schroeder

I am in with

Chris and Frank on #2, I will bet that you have original ducts that have been added onto for an addition at each end, which will mean all new ductwork to boot if you go with #1. WIth that much added cost it would be reasonable to go for the bestt in hydroics you can afford.

Bruce

Constantin

Fellow homeowner here, with a couple of opinions.

Comfort-wise, I doubt there is anything better than a heating system optimized to heat your home and a cooling system that is optimized to do the latter. Whenever I have performed heat loss and heat gain calculations, the conclusion is that the summer vs. the winter loads are very different, which makes getting the ductwork and air flows right quite a challenge.

Undoubtedly, many modern air-based systems do a pretty good job of zoning, etc. but come winter time I am never as comfortable in a forced-air house as I am at home where I have water-based heating.

Cost and efficiency-wise, I doubt you will be able to do better than having a couple of right-sized radiators around the house to keep you warm. Zone them as you wish, micro-zone them with TRVs if you want even finer control. Retrofit sub-floor RFH can work, but it usually requires a very well-insulated house or mild conditions.

I would shy away from installing any cooling equipment in a uninsulated attic - too many losses will occur there. Instead, I would see what can be done to make the extant system work better, then take up the suggestions from Building Science Corporation to make your building as airtight and dry as possible. Many crawlspaces are vented, have no vapor barrier or insulation on the perimeter, etc., all of which are conditions that need to be fixed.

Once the house is insulated and tight, get a contractor to perform a heat loss and heat gain calculation or perform the calculation yourself. Then consult with your installer re: what is the best equipment to install in your area. Don't be afraid to ask questions and keep looking for a contractor until you find one who is as enthusiastic about hydronic systems as we are.

I would shy away from GSHPs for the simple reason that most of us will never recoup the very high initial costs of a GSHP. But, if you can get it installed for little money, then can be great sources of heating and cooling. One other thing to consider though is that they usually max out at a water supply temp of around 120°F, so consider that when you size your radiators.

garret_8

Nah, I'm just a homeowner trying to look at the big picture. Is replacing a working 15 year old furnace, switching over to hydronics, etc., going to pay off as quickly as better windows, insulation, etc.?

That's all I was wondering...

Peace,
-G

S. Ohio Homeowner

Thanks for that reply

What are the differences between installing RFH in new construction vs. retrofit?

Attic floor has blown-in insulation. I assume the roof would need to be insulated? The attic does have two thermostatically-controoled roof ventilators installed to prevent summer overheating.

S. Ohio Homeowner

I didn't think that your reply was unreasonable,

but I'm getting a pretty good price on the house. Also, I'm planning to finish the basement and would like to remove old ductwork now if that's where I'm ultimately going to be, for the cleanest finished look.

The old furnace is 70 % efficient, but the prior bills are reasonable for this area.

Constantin

A couple of differences...

... in new construction, you can place the tubes above the subfloor and thus run pretty low water temperatures and still transfer enough heat into the home. Examples include warmboard (an integrated subfloor-RFH emitter), the various quick-track incaranations, even gypgrete.

In retrofit installations, you typically only can access the subfloor from below. That means you have an extra layer to go through, conduction-wise, and there are some pretty difficulty sealing issues as well. It all adds up to higher water temperatures being required to heat the same home as an above-sub-floor system.

The lower the water temperature, the higher the potential savings if you're using a mod-con boiler. Lower water temps also reduce standby losses.

In my home, I sealed/insulated the roof deck so that the attic is part of the conditioned space. I have a air handler up there.

Unknown

I'd pick number

I'd pick number 2 with cast iron baseboards can't beat the total " liquid" sunshine... A lot of money but I always say its the 2nd best heating and comfort and lower cost... ( radiant floor is 1st, if installed properly) if you are planning to live there looooooong, its ur dime and comfort... I did a new addation last summer with cast iron base boards mixed with copper baseboards in older addition ( seprated zones and new boiler) they loved the cast iron comfort and told me they are saving up to have the copper finned craps replaced soon, but the gasoline costs running away...

Brad White_111

My vote is for Number

2. All reasons stated.

S. Ohio Homeowner

Are there any manufacturers of cast-iron baseboards on the web? I'd like to compare their appearance with Runtal.

J.C.A._3

S.O.Homeowner,

Burnham makes Baseray, and Weil Mclean has a similar product ..Snug 9...I think they call it. Chris

Christian Egli_2

Vote for lucky number 7

OK, I've made up a few other options, and a very attractive one, considering the wild and intemperate ranges of Ohio weather, is to go quick acting steam. Easy to implement in your crawl space layout...

I'm in Dayton, and I know how hard it is to make up your mind about the weather. Steam is never shy.

No one thought of that. Option 2 is the next best. Baseboard heating too, works quite well in this climate.

Option 3414

Look into pricing options on combined AC and heat pump (without electric supplement heat), not much extra money will give you some shoulder season flexibility and redundancy. But don't count on it for mid winter Ohio warmth, that's when real heat is needed.

Check out with Pat Linhardt whose recommendation might help, he's from Cincinnati. Check him out on the wall. He's real cool.

S. Ohio Homeowner

It seems like common sense to me that cast iron would be superior to lighter, thinner metals. OTOH, I love those Runtal towel warmers.

BTW, why don't all manufacturers use cast iron?

S. Ohio Homeowner

Actually, I'm in Butler County, so someone from Dayton might be interested in bidding the job... Know anybody ?

Unknown

I used to

I used to go to Cinncy when they had the Mighty Ducks playing vs the Chicago Wolves at the Gardens... Hoping they get another hockey team there, the Gardens is an old bldg with steam heat as well full of history....
If you give me ur address via my e mail, I'll be glad to mail ya the weil mclain cast iron base boards information, they been making them over 60 yrs ... One thing they stop making as well Burham, the shorter height baseboards (7")