Expected life & overall value of a good condensing boiler

Robert O'Brien

a search here on AFUE and you'll get an education

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Perry_2

Expected life and value of good condensing boiler

I am looking to replace my "well aged" boiler (52 years young).

I have cast iron baseboard heating which operates at 140 F (nominal); with 99 Ft of baseboard installed in the living areas. There is one thermostat for the house.

The system is a single loop system with Mon-flow Tee's. Individual radiators have a throttle valve to allow ballancing of the room temperatures.

The system functions quite well - in fact; I love it.

Obviously, I can greatly improve boiler efficency by proper sizing and by installing a modern boiler.

Given I live in Wisconsin this will also have a nice affect on my winter heating bills.

Now I can get "near" condensing boilers in the 84 - 85% efficiency range; and operate my system essentially the same way it has always been. I have been advised that this new boiler will probably not last 50 years like my old Crane-Line boiler.

Or I can get a modulating condensing boiler on the line of a Viessmann Vitodens 200 (amazing efficiency), or a Munchkin, put in temperature reset to allow the system to operate at lower temperatures (say down to 100 or so).

Now I am intriqued with the idea of squeezing every last usable therm out of my gas bill, and figure that the difference will be about $125 per year in energy savings or cost between the two options. But, have also heard that some of the condensing boilers have been failing at less than 10 years. Of course, that may be due to poor design or poor installation (and few people put in the better equip - they often put in the cheaper equipment).

So if I put in a 85% efficient boiler - I get perhaps 20 or 25 years out of it (I would hope: Please let me know - My heating contractor preferes to use Crown Boilers).

On the other hand, if I buy the Vitodens 200.... (or perhaps the Munchkin)... will it actually last long enough to have been a good investment? What is the expected life of a Viessmann Vitodens, or a Munchkin?

Thanks in advance.

Perry

Note: email address has been modified to stop search engines and junk mail.



I would also like to abandon my chimney so that in a future year I can use its space to install some basic air conditioning equipment to the 2 living floors in the house (humidity control is really needed in the summers as I live along Lake Michagan). I know this won't be the "perfect" A/C system - but it will be a vast improvement.

hr

Crane or do you mean Crown?

keep in mind most mod cons come with a very nice control module including od reset, dhw priority and a host of other options. Expect to pay another 500 to add that much control to a conventional boiler.

I'd guess, easily 15 years for a mod con. Perhaps a lot more if they are properly installed and cared for. Including a yearly clean and check, with careful attention to water quality, also.

I'm not sure what component would wear out to make them a throw away. Most have 15 year HX warranties, and upgradeable warranties are available for the other components.

Just like the modern automobile, expect to pay more for repairs. A time was when a tune up for a car consisted of plugs, a set of points and condensor. Nowadays and ignition module will cost 300 or more to replace. Plan on a couple grand should your diesel injector pump and injectors go junk

The biggest unkown to give you a good answer would be future fuel costs. Supose LP or NG goes to 4 or 5 bucks, or more, a gallon. That may be sooner then we expect.

hot rod

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hr

nm

Perry_2

Crown it is...

Thanks, I noticed the error when you were replying and was editing my orignial post when you replied.

15 years+ seems more reasonable.

I can live with annual cleaning and other things. While not a heating contractor - I used to help clean coal furnaces, and a few oil ones, for the local coal dealer when I was a kid. For most of my adult life I have played with big boilers (15 - 20 stories high), and other heat exchangers, in Power Plants.

Let's see what the others think.

Perry

Robert O'Brien

How did you arrive at

$125 a yr savings? Unless you're current gas bills are $500 a year it will be a lot more than that.

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Perry_2

$125 per year savings is from...

the difference between an 85% efficent boiler and a 95% efficient boiler.

No one really knows how efficient my existing boiler is: I set up a spreadsheet with an assumption of 55% and 65% that calculates the expected savings if I go to a specified new boiler efficiency.

The total annual savings of upgrading the boiler to a 95% efficient one approaches $700 if the existing one is 55% efficient. However, most of that savings would be achieved by use of a 85% efficient boiler.

Without knowing current efficieny and real effective efficincy of the new boiler (does reality match nameplate?) - I rounded the "difference" of the 55% and 65% example and called it "about" $125 per year.

Thus, the basis of my question - is it worth spending the extra (incremental cost) for a modulated condensing boiler for estimated (incremental savings) of $125 per year.

This directly relates to expected boiler life: If the 95% effecient boiler has an expected short life - then there would be no payback (and I potentially would loose money). If it has an expected long life - then there may be suitable payback.

Perry

Perry_2

Done

Isn't it amazing that one of the papers talked about how people look at things from a cost payback mode... Guilty as charged. Do I spend X for this or Y for that?

Perry

hr

I had a 30% reduction in fuel

consumption switching from a 10 year old cast iron boiler to a Knight mod con. I have 11 years of LP invoidces to track my costs.

Yes, we did have a milder than normal winter. It translated into a 360 gallon savings in Lp at $1.39 per gallon, or 500 bucks. Currently LP is $1.59 with over 2 bucks a gallon predicted.

I'm one of a handful of contractors on this list that switched to mod con and experienced these savings. Mr Eatherton even added a gas meter to his mod con to track actual fuel consumption.

In my case 500 bucks a year savings, or more, for even ten years will easily pay for the conversion.

I'm fine with a newer more advanced boiler 10 years from now

hot rod

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Perry_2

Thanks so far - keep them comming.

Thanks for the help so far. I have not yet finished getting quotes; but I know that installing the mod con system will be more expensive.

My biggest concern was with the expected life. I have an acquantice who had one fail in less than 7 years... and my heating contractor is skeptical due to some early experience he had (but is willing to work with me). Replacing boilers is a lot of $, and the thought of needing to do that every 7 - or 10 years is not good. Not when I could install an "old stlye" boiler and get most of the savings and a long expected life for less $ up front.

I know - standard consumer thinking... Not quite, I've tried to spend a fair amount of time researching things and am not going to buy the cheapest boiler (or job) that is tossed my way. Paying more up front for a quality product and a quality job always pays off. My concern was in paying more for a premium product that may not have a reasonable justification.

Given the information that the better companies offered a 15 year warrantee helps. The first bidder who came through does not have that kind of warrantee on thier product.

Perry

Brad White_108

Without opening up another thread,

here is my $0.02-

When going from a venerable cast iron boiler with on-off operation to nearly any ModCon, your savings will be mostly derived (in my descending order of importance) from:

1) Proper sizing to the actual heat loss.

This would compared to what the CI boiler was originally sized for plus capturing any insulation, sealing and window improvements made over the years. Chances are that large old boiler was way oversized even on the coldest day.

If you forget this, you lose. No neat, easy way to compensate for an over-sized boiler.

2) Modulation (The Mod in ModCon).

Compare current operation:
Every time the CI boiler fires it goes through a warm-up cycle; the combustion products spike then finally settle at whatever "steady state" efficiency can be had. This happens every time she fires. In the coldest weather these cycles are farther apart (but probably still happen indicating over-sizing). Worst thing is, your coldest weather probably occurs less than 5 percent of winter hours. When warmer the cycling gets far worse. The warmer it is, the less efficient the boiler gets, the colder the better for what it is worth.

Enter modulation. When the load lessens, the boiler has a choice; it need not shut down (the only option the CI boiler has). Rather, it can modulate downward and coast for a while, constantly adjusting to the load changes. Only when the heat loss is less than the minimum output capacity will the boiler cycle. Even when it does, the low mass/water volume minimizes the cycle/standby losses. This alone is the greatest operational savings.

A well sized boiler will last longer and not cycle itself to death.

3) Condensing. OK, you get peak efficiencies of maybe 85% with a "conventional" on-off boiler and 92-98% with condensing at peak. From this you say, "Hey, 85% to 95%- that is 10% savings...."

Sure, on paper anyway. Throw in the cycles of the CI boiler and your true annual operating efficiency might be in the mid 50's to high 60's, especially if oversized. (EDIT: I noticed you already grasp this well. Forgive repeated information.) With modulation AND condensing, your peak efficiencies are held longer. With proper sizing, reset control and intelligent programming, your savings will be much more than the "10% AFUE" difference.

4) The System:

This is the variable against which the new boiler will be operating. It is existing in your case, "it is what it is".

Your 99 feet of CI baseboard? I will assume Burnham Baseray at 3.4 EDR per LF. At 140 degrees average temperature (not entering temperature), the output per EDR is 90 BTU's per hour. This tells me that the output is about 30,300 BTU's per hour.

If 140 is your entering temperature, and your average is 130 F., the radiator output per EDR drops to 70 BTU's per hour. If this is the case your output would be 23,500 BTU's per hour -a small or well insulated house IMHO! This is NOT a heat loss calculation but a point of comparison to be weighed against your calculated heat loss. I would say that your domestic hot water load is greater than your heat loss. Not a bad position to find yourself in.

Throw in some TRV's on the radiators (every room a high limit zone which "gives it back to the system" if the room is satisfied. Cheap wow.


Sorry for the ramble. Just some observations and mostly to the point about your expected savings.

Robert O'Brien

Brad

It was a pleasure meeting you last week.

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Perry_2

How the system operates (Temp & Cycling)

Thanks for the info.

So a modulating boiler will have more benifits than just a properly sized normal boiler.

Baseray is a good estimate, slightly different pattern - but close.

I did some temp measurments this spring when I knew that I should now replace the boiler (I had hoped to get another few years out of it until more weatherization projects done).

The boiler set points are 150 F high, 130 F low. The actual water temperature ranges from that 150 high out down to about 135 out; and the system temperature drop is about 22 F at the return.

The boiler initially had a direct hot water coil in it; which the immediate previous owner bypassed to install a separate hot water heater. The issue was not that the boiler didn't supply enough hot water: It was that it's radiant heat warmed up the basement in the summer - and the hot water was "too" hot for a house with small children.

I note that the person who built and lived in this house for the first 40+ years was a plumbing/heating contractor; and I have some neat "Pipe" railings and other "pipe" fixtures in the house.

You are correct in that the boiler is oversized. It is rated at 132,000 Btu/Hr and the gas retrofit burner (from oil) is rated at 175,000 Bty/Hr input (which I supose is not that bad for how things used to be done). But was it really oversized given that it used to supply hot water for a family?

An energy study when I purchased the house estimated the heating needs at 60,000 Btu/Hr for -9 F weather. I have done some improvements since (and was hoping to reduce things fairly easily by another 10,000 Btu/Hr with the next couple of projects (I do one project a year. The remaining listed 10,000 Btu/Hr that can be gotten off the list (and another spreadsheet I have) will not be so easy or so cost effective.

The heating system works fine except for when it gets down to about zero F when you start to notice that things are getting cool in the side of the house I did not replace windows in (yet). The boiler cycles multiple times a day even under these conditions when the thermistat is calling for heat at all times.

Finally, I am glad that you saw that I realized that there is more to cost payback than just rated efficiency; although I was thinking of life of the boiler as well.


Perry

Brad White_108

Sizing and Cycling

Seems there is no place to go but up here, Perry.

Firstly, let's get a heat loss calculated for your home. Check out the Heat Loss Calcs tab on this site and start the process. It goes quickly once you know how many SF each of wall, glass, roof, etc. you have and what insulation they have.

I suspect from the conversation about your radiation that your heat loss is in that range stated (call it 35-40,000 BTU's per hour- this is a small house if not already insulated, correct?) I am not convinced of the 60,000 number given your limited radiatoon. The 99 LF would need 190 degree water supplied to meet the 606 BTUH per LF you require. The fact that you can do it with far lower a temperature tells me that your heat loss has to be less, in the 40,000 range as just a guess.
Thus, any cold spots can be overcome by either increasing the temperature of the water supplied OR adding radiation. I prefer to add radiation if possible. To do so allows using a lower supply water temperature for more hours of the winter. But let's calculate and compare.

My hunch being that you are in that heat loss range tells me that you are within the range of the smallest ModCons for the heating side of things so insulating will not help the boiler size so much as decrease your operating cost.

Domestic Hot Water (as it was): Unless the boiler had the most ginormous internal coil, I think it was still grossly oversized. No need to have a boiler sized larger than the amount of heat emitter surface connected to it. No way to deliver that heat, so why create it?

[I am not suggesting that you size your boiler based on what is connected to it; it should be the greater of heat loss or domestic HW load, not added but the greatest single load.]

As for high domestic temperatures, they should have had a mixing valve. You should have one too, going forward.

I would get an indirect HW heater sized to your needs. Use the one you now have (seems fairly new?) as a back-up for the indirect or as "prime source" until it dies. At least pipe the new boiler for the eventuality of installing an indirect.

Hope this helps!

Brad

Jeff Lawrence_25

thinking

> The

> boiler set points are 150 F high, 130 F low. The

> actual water temperature ranges from that 150

> high out down to about 135 out; and the system

> temperature drop is about 22 F at the

> return.


> The heating system works

> fine except for when it gets down to about zero F

> when you start to notice that things are getting

> cool in the side of the house I did not replace

> windows in (yet). The boiler cycles multiple

> times a day even under these conditions when the

> thermistat is calling for heat at all

> times.



Just a thought. If the house starts to get cool at zero degrees OAT, maybe you could turn the boiler temp up a bit. One hundred fifty degress isn't much. Most boilers can safely be set at 180 degrees and hum along happily there. You can always turn it back down when the outside temps goes back up.

Perry_2

Heat loss & Reset Curves for new boilers

You are right, it's a fairly small house (comparably): 3 Bedroom 1700 Sq Ft + basement - and arround here they call this a story and a half (there is a second floor, but with 2 BR and a small bath - with no attic.

Well built Brick house, used steel I beams to support bearing walls in the basement. Even insulated (2" rockwool) which was rare in the early 1950's in these parts. I found the original blue prints (and relaed building notes) in the basement when I moved in (Lumber, doors, windows, etc cost about $6000).

I bought it due to its hot water heat and hardwood & tile floors as I have asthma and dust mite allergies (the "modern" carpeting was gone withing 18 hours of my closing on the house).

My biggest home improvement projects are related to stopping air infiltration and heat blowing away. The window Frames and doors frames leak badly; but at this point i have probably cut 1/2 of the initial leakage - with more to go (doors was my next project - now displaced by the boiler).

I appreciate the comments about my "realistic" heat load needs based on what the radiators put out.

I hadn't actually thought of tinkering with the setting on my existing boiler before. But I do like the concept of outdoor temperature reset curves that modulate how hot the water is based on outside temperatures. One of the things I like about the Viessmann Vitodens 200 is the user selectable heat load curves so that you can match the curve to your house. I am less impressed with the companies that have one defined curve (180 F water at 0 F).

As you can see - I dig for technical info and make sure it makes sense to me.

As far as keeping the existing hot water heater as a backup: Thanks for the idea - it is something to think about.

Perry

Brad White_9

Glad you are leaning towards

the Vitodens. It does stand in a class by itself.

I should have added in my first post more emphasis on outdoor reset.

Nothing quite so efficient as using the almost linear relationship between water temperature and radiator output and indexing that to the almost linear relationship between outdoor temperature and a building's heat loss at a given temperature.

Jeff is absolutely correct; you are holding back on temperature and have plenty of room to increase it without a problem. Now, do that automatically and you will have savings plus spare time!

Good Luck and keep us posted. I think I can say collectively that we love to hear about the results and comparisons to "what was".

Modulation added to this, plus condensing... your body will be more comfortable as will be your wallet.

D107

sizing boiler

From Brad: "[I am not suggesting that you size your boiler based on what is connected to it; it should be the greater of heat loss or domestic HW load, not added but the greatest single load.]"

(Homeowner here, Perry.) Brad just to clarify this since it may differ from what I have understood from many wall posts, which is that you size to the heat loss and then use storage in cases where the DHW requirements are greater than the space heating. If Perry has a heat loss of 40Kbtu his instant recovery DHW load could be twice or three times that given simultaneous showers, wash loads--worst case scenario etc. But would you size the boiler based on that? The recovery tables from the indirect HWHs usually spec the boiler btu output required for instant recovery (like a tankless coil etc. yes?) but I seem to recall your advising me that storage and a bit less than instant recovery will make up that difference.

Anyway, this may be moot, if as you say, Perry's house could do with the smallest mod con since the highest of the modulated firing rates could easily handle either load. Many of us like Perry often find ourselves racing to seal our home envelopes in time to qualify for the smaller boiler. The Buderus GB-142 e.g. I think has outputs ranging from the around 23K to 75K which could cover not only the DHW peak load but the reduced load of a sealed house in the future.

David

Brad White_9

To Clarify

Hi David!

My point would be that the building heat loss is within the lower end of the total modulation range of the boiler and that the Domestic Hot Water load is greater than that.

IOW:

Take the Vitodens 200 6-24 with 91 MBH input modulating down to 23 MBH input. If the building heat loss alone is say, 40,000, the boiler will modulate down within that range and cycle when the heat loss is below that minimum. However, the total boiler output is greater by default, up into the high 80's MBH range depending on efficiency. That will meet the DHW load for any respectable heater. Remember, this is the smallest boiler made in that line- you get the capacity by default and modulation is your friend when it goes back to heating the house.

If the boiler were a lesser input (such as a Munchkin 50, or other boilers of lesser input) then storage is the variable you need to compensate for demand. The M50 or T50 can meet the heat loss and will heat DHW as needed just not at any great rate when heating demand is high, so such must be stored.

But with a larger boiler there is little or no need for that kind of storage so you might as well use the generating capacity you have available.

Does that make sense?

Brad

EDIT: Robert O'Brien contacted me off line and is absolutely correct in that the Munchkins will boost and over-ride their rated output from 50 to 80 and 80 to 110 I believe, when in DHW mode. This is with the Vision 1 control I understand. I was going to mention this but did not want to burden the essential sizing issue with too much detail. Robert is correct but the principle of discussion remains the same. Thanks Robert!
BEW

Paul Pollets

Great Thread!!

And right-on answers, Brad.

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Perry_2

I'll keep you posted on details and results as I go

Thanks all:

I will definetely keep you posted on how this all goes - and the results. I have 5 years of detailed gas usage records to compare it too.

I have another question - that I will post separatly.

Perry

Perry_2

I understand

Brad:

I am glad that you appreciate my preferred condensing boiler.

By nature - I'm a researcher; and want to know how things work. Yes I will work with a good local heating contractor. But as Ronale Reagan once said: "Trust, but verify." How, as a consumer, do you know when you are being snowed versus being given a good option? Most people have no clue. Last year I hired a painter for the trim, upper back (which is sided), and detached garage. I didn't hire the cheapest painter - I hired the one who convinced me that they knew what really needed to be done (who was the most expensive as well). OK, so I'm an oddball (don't ya all wish there were more like me).

I am willing to pay for a premium product - when it will actually deliver good results. I have spent a lot of time looking at boiler information on the internet - and it did seem that the Vicoden was a well designed product with some user frendly features that others either don't have - or don't bother explaining that they have in their literature (including Installation Manuals).

Concerning my comments on design; well... I hope you don't hold this against me; but I am one of those people with the "E" word education title - and have a background in HX design, operation, and maintenance (and am full time employed to take care of HX's). I look at a lot of pictures and discriptions of the boiler HX's - and ask myself: What about this - or that; or there is the weak spot - that's where the cracks will occur. The Vitodens designer perhaps understood some things that others did not. In addition the "burner" design is quite elegant. As far as my being an "E"; well - I know what I know - and I know what I don't know. As a ratio it is probably about .02% know - and 99.8% don't know. Unfortunately, like every profession - there are just enough of us "E" who are convinced that the ratios I listed are backwards - and they give the rest of us a bad name.

Now should I consider a smaller boiler (and their may be arguments for that) - then I will have to look more. Too bad Viessmann doesn't make a smaller boiler.

Perry

Brad White_9

Ich Bien Ein E...

I am not an installer but bear the dreaded E label myself (HVAC of course).

D107

great question and not one answer

hi perry,

From the informed HO perspective it is often hard to know when you're being told the truth. First, as Brad and others here often say, 'it depends' on what system is going where under what conditions. Second, there are a wide variety of opinions about many choices in hydronics, so 'THE' correct way is often elusive. Though I think there are certain things you can bank on--that pumping away --not on the return--is THE way to go for example. I tend to have a number of 'trick' questions prepared -- ones I believe I know the answer to based on research, the wall etc.-- questions that should not be a matter of dispute by any reasonably knowledgeable installer or based on manufacturer's instructions.

1. A contractor told me to drain condensate waste from a mod con he drills a hole in the basement cement and shoves a pipe down and lets it flow. Bad
2. Others have told me they size jobs based on existing rad size (for hot water) instead of doing a true heat loss.
3. One told me a pilot ignition gas boiler does not need to be checked and combustion analyzed annually.
4. Another told me I need not insulate my new stainless steel chimney liner (it's on the outside of the house.) to protect against condensation.

Etc etc. Sometimes it's a difference of opinion and sometimes it's laziness, or ignorance. If you get at least three estimates and spend time with them you'll probably get a feel for their level of competence. Also, depending on your area you might find one of the wall posters or those listed in the find a pro site here to be near your area.

David

Perry_2

No listed pro's in my area

One of the first things I checked. No one within 100 miles. Since that covers Milwaukee - I doubt there are any in the boonies beyond.

As far as getting quotes - well one guy told me that you wanted a boiler to cycle (even the condensing boiler he suggested for the application) - that running the condensing boiler all the time when it got cold would not be good for the boiler; and that he would size his boiler accordingly. Hmmm.... methinks that he does not get the job.

Brad White_9

The guy who told you that...about wanting to cycle boilers....

Don't tell me... His name is Johansen he come to Viskansen to verk for Jan Deere....Nah, you no vant him!

Unknown

where

Where are you located?

Brad White_9

Ray-mond! Ray-mond!

Go Ray Go!!

Perry_2

In Visconsin - Ya...

North of Manitowoc, WI

Or for those who are looking at a map... about 45 minutes South-South East of Green Bay.

Dem Packers... Hey... Need Better Packers... Ya.

Perhaps we should send some of the players back to the meat packing plant.... Opps! the meat packing plant that sponsored the original "city team" went out of business long ago.

Unknown

that vay out of ny vay!

That's way out of my way and tooo deep in packers terrrrioty. I'm a bears and die hard Wolves hockey fan, can smell them rotton cheese heads anywhere.... Surely, there should be some good wethead contractors in ur area, did you ask any heating supply homes for any recommedations? Some of my steamer jobs came from supply house as they know I'm not afriad of them... Keep us posted!

Frenchie

Perry

Schram and Sons on Kinzie avenue in Racine. I'm not sure if they would go that far for a job or not, but it would only be about an hour or so away from you. They are listed on here as the only PRO in my area. I'm from Waterford, and I went to school with the guy that runs that shop. Definitely trustworthy.

Robert O'Brien

Perry

This a Rep Co. in Wisconsin. I met them last week,they can rec a good contractor in the area. http://hotwaterproducts.com/ Ask for Howard or Dan,these guys are Munchkin experts.

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Perry_2

Probably too far

Racine is about a 2 hour drive with average non-rush hour traffic through Milwaukee (pre Marquett interchange project - where things change week by week and day by day).

Actually, The guy who gets a lot of local referrals is my normal service heating guy. He's busy and we have an appointment is several weeks. Unfortunately, he is currently skeptical of condensing boilers - in part I understand from a bad experience with an early model years ago. I'm hoping to get him to reconsider and work with me. I did send him some information as well.

Until then, I'll have a few others quote in the hopes of finding someone else if my normal guy cannot be perswaded.

Perry

S Ebels

Hey!

I can load the van and be in Ludington Mi in about 2 hours. Take the ferry across to Manitowoc and slip it right in for you. ROAD TRIP!!!!

I actually took the helm of the Badger for about 20 minutes when I was 13 years old. I'll never forget the captain telling me to keep the globe sized compass on heading 283*. Dad's cousin was first mate on the boat for about 20 years and he gave us the complete guided tour from the engine room on up to the command deck.

Brad White_108

PERRY!

This offer from Steve Ebels is one you ought not refuse.

One of the very best coming to you from across the sea...

Perry_2

Perhaps - but what about serrvice calls....

Steve:

Sounds like it could work... If you schedule it right I'll get you into a Packers game.

I'll keep it in mind.

I presume that you would then charter a plane for reasonable response time for any service calls.... all for $35 to $50 to get to my doorstep (remember, the SS Badger does not run during winter).

Perry_2

Coal Fired Boilers and the SS Badger.

I did see a short video tour since I moved here (5.5 years ago). Brings back a lot of memories..... I did 5 years in a US Navy engineroom as a Machinist Mate (before I went to college for that "E" degree and got into Power Plants). Stoker Fired roto-grate coal boilers; like what is in the SS Badger - are also used in smaller power plants (typically Municipal power plants). Not many Municipal power plants left anymore - but I did work in one for a while (and spent a fair amount of time inspecting and directing the repair of those boilers I'm one of those "hands on" "E's").

Perry

Jim Pompetti

cost

there are several ways to look at saving . First,your personnal out of pocket saving , of $125 to $700 per year.
Secondly , over all fuel saving , with our natural resourses dwindling , we need to cut back on usage.

D107

I think we're in the 4th quarter now

Just a fan in the bleachers here.....Perry I can understand your concern about servicing but this could be a different arrangement than usual. This could be an opportunity for Steve Ebels to work together with your local guy --who you seem to like-- and in effect it would be a workshop for both of you. I'd bet these wallies would agree that with your background you could learn how to do your own annual cleaning of the boiler; your guy would come away with a new faith and knowledge in mod cons and would have Steve as a future resource. Service calls from Steve would occur only in conjunction with a Packer superbowl victory.

David