gas + inexpierence

JoeV

I can't argue that one because it's true!

joel_19

gas + inexpierence

just heard that a house near hear got trashed from a gas exsplosion the other day. Initial investigation makes it apear that the home owner was trying to change a water heater himself. The new one was sitting right there in what was left of the basement.

I am not good with computers , it is a minor triumph for me to be able to make "The Wall" work. Anything tougher well i've got people i pay , office staff, computer geeks, my 10 yold son.

Point is what would posses someone to tackle something so dangerous as that to save a few bucks? The cheapest houses here are around 400k and spiral to the millions. so if your paying a mortgage on that how can you not afford to have a pro fix the water heater?



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Ragu_4

Tough to figure..

That's a tough mindset to figure out Joel; people have different versions of economics and value for monies spent. I've come up with 3 reasons why people get into doing projects that are over their heads:

1. They are broke, and truly can't afford to buy both material and labor.

2. They THINK they are broke.

3. They truly do not understand (as this poor guy didn't) what is involved in certain trades, and what can go wrong. Part of this is just not knowing; part of this is believing the DIY marketing strategy: "This stuff is so easy, anyone can do it!"; and the worst part (for me) is the elitist attitude of some people that their high level of academic intelligence is far superior to that of those "lowly" tradespeople.

It would be interesting to talk to this guy and ask him for his thoughts on the matter today.

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Leo

Ragu hit the nail on the head, "and the worst part (for me) is the elitist attitude of some people that their high level of academic intelligence is far superior to that of those "lowly" tradespeople." I have a nephew who fits this yuppie arrogant attitude. Another thing along the same lines is the attitude of expecting free time off the trades people.

Leo

Ron Schroeder

expecting free time off the trades people

I once had the local Pizza house guy ask if I would go to his house to fix s burner that someone else messed up, so I asked if he would come Saturday night to my house and fix the Pizza my wife had messed up, he never asked again.

Leo

You got to love it

My neighbor used to work for a Mercedes dealer. The local oil company owner asked him if he would work on his Mercedes on the side. This is the same owner who makes you leave your van at the shop when on vacation for fear of you using "his equipment" to do a side job.
Gotta Love It,

Leo

Tony_23

#3

I've had people tell me they've got two Master's degrees as if that gives them some insight into my pricing or procedures.

I always ask what their majors were, and then try to apply the subject matter to the task at hand. It either makes them understand and back off or it upsets them and they don't call again. Either way is good by me

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David Sutton_6

i have two price options...

#1. pay me for being there and fixing the problem.

#2. dont pay me for not being there to fix the prblem.
either one is ok.

seems people are at differant levels of being broke,one guy make 800 a week and is a paycheck away, the other guy make 1500 a week and is a paycheck from broke....

i had one guy pull his better than you attitude, half way thru the call i packed up my tools and headed for the door(after putting it back the way it was ) he said you can't go!! i looked at him and smiled and said wanna bet ! bye....


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Scott Kneeland

I had a customer say to me once while on a night call and it was about 0 outside and snowing sideways. " If you had an education like me you wouldn't have to that" "I said if you had an education like me you would know better than to say that" that was the last time I worked for him. O yea I think I charged a little extra to.

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ed wallace

gas and no experience

I am waiting for the gas inspector to fine this homeowner oh darn just remembered in Ma. a homeowner can do his/her own house repairs guess the state wont be getting a $100.00 check from this guy

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Ken D.

Scott

It is amazing how educated people don't know when to keep their mouths shut. It usually costs them in the end. And deservedly so.

S Ebels

If the guy

If the guy was trying to save a couple shekels I can't say as I blame anyone for that. The problem arises when these folks don't understand all they think they know about something.

I can't think of a single device or appliance that contains a fuel fired burner of any type, that an untrained person should be messing with let alone replacing.

In this case the guy's desire to be Mr Handyman or else save some dough proved to be his undoing. Sounds like he's a Darwin Award waiting to happen.

Keith_8

Education vs intelligence

Guy's there is a big difference.

Some of the more intelligent people I have met have had minimal formal education. Some of the more educated people I have met have had little intelligence or common sense. They may be experts in their field but not to sharp in any other aspect of life.

Notice the use of the word some. In my opinion the value of a formal education should not be minimalized any more than the value of common sense should be minimalized. Without some of both types of intelligence your success in life will be questionable.

My wife HAD a friend who was a college proffessor. This women would ask my opinion on some aspect of the building trades that I have spent the last 28 years of my life educating myself on and would then proceed to keep asking the same question over and over again if she did not like the answer. After a couple rounds of this I mentioned to my wife, that enough of her, SHE IS A FRUIT CASE. Good luck to her and her kind.

Never minimalize a formal or practical education, they both are invaluable if applied correctly.

Keith

Christian Egli_2

Copycat NY mansion that goes boom, allegedly

Perhaps there are more criminally minded motives at hand.

You've read of the New York doctor who was involved in a messy divorce who rather than loose the family mansion to the wife decided to blow it up instead. Of course, no one is the better off, and I think there is a clinical term for this sort of extreme jealousy syndrome.

It only leaves you with blown up homes, sky high insurance premiums and in the case of the New York doctor, dead. Who's the smart one now?

Brad White_2

NY Doctor go Kaboom

M.D. = Mighty Dead.

Brad White_2

Keith- I am getting to like you and your postings....

What gets me about condescending and arrogant people who lord their degrees over others is, when it is cold out, whom to they call to get the degrees that really count?

Albert Huntermark

Hey if this idiot can do it!

I agree with you! Even in my own family I get that from the ones with degrees, and for some the work performed is at no charge! Hey if this moron can do it, it can't be that complicated, right! Or, you are a very intelligent individual and I can't believe that this is all that you do! They don't realize the hours that we put in to get our credentials and certifications, and to maintain them later. Over the years, I put in enough hours of training equivalent to the hours required for a bachelor’s degree. And no, I didn’t take modern dance either! Also, the motor skills that we've developed to perform the tasks, the experience that we bring along with us, and the savvy that we have to solve new issues, from our experience. I guess we should just throw all of this in for free! I could go on and on! I gets down to every individual should know what there capabilities are, and stay within their limits. Do you think the person that installed the water heater would have pulled his own tooth if he had a toothache. Hey even Moe, Larry & Curly, could do that! Three good “do-it-yourselfer’s”! They would try to tackle any task. At least they showed us what can happen when you try! Unfortunately, the results of the water heater where not as funny. Oh I forgot, they had no degrees!

Christian Egli_2

I know Reaumur degrees and the octogesimal division

Superb wit, Mr. White

Does it really matter whether we have degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius if we can't even count?

Count on what matters. Doctors recommend gas goes boom.

jackchips_2

Hi Ed,

> I am waiting for the gas inspector to fine this

> homeowner oh darn just remembered in Ma. a

> homeowner can do his/her own house repairs guess

> the state wont be getting a $100.00 check from

> this guy

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 354&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

jackchips_2

Hi Ed,

> I am waiting for the gas inspector to fine this

> homeowner oh darn just remembered in Ma. a

> homeowner can do his/her own house repairs guess

> the state wont be getting a $100.00 check from

> this guy

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 354&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

jackchips_2

Hi Ed,

Only licensed plumbers and gas fitters can do their trade in Massachusetts unless you are aware of some change in the law.

Homeowners may repair, not replace, a kitchen faucet or a similar small repair but that is it as far as I know.

Also, I don't know of any code or law that allows an inspector to fine anyone, the municipality maybe, but that is only through my past experience and again things may have changed.

Jack

JoeV

H.O. chiming in

I agree with what you guys are saying but when you price the cost of black pipe,flex hose, and appliance to what a plumber wants to charge, well, it's easy to understand both the economics and the short sightedness of the HO.

Case in point(a true story), Neighbor A is a very well reputed plumber. Neighbor B is a single woman with a limited income and a leaky hot water heater (Not that this should matter; but the fact that they're neighbors should).

Neighbor B asks me to do it but I don't want the liability-I'm not a contractor but I have and would install my own hot water heater. I refer her to Neighbor A who accepts the job and sticks her with a $1,100.00 bill.

50g Water heater $365.00(from Lowes-probably cheaper from supply house to plumber). Flex hose $7.50. Time to pick up appliance and install: 2hours. No urgency to get it done as leak was minor and neighbor A did the work several days later.

Sorry, but $365/hr for labor seems pretty darn steep to me. Especially when both neighbors live across the street from each other! (yes, i do believe a break was called for in this case) $365/hr seems obscene. She was giving him her business and got the business instead. She stupidly assumed she was going to get a fair price and didn't ask for a quote up front.

I don't mean to stir anything up by kicking a hornets nest but when you see prices like this, it is understandable for people to look for alternatives.

ScottMP

Joe

I will agree with your statement that we all should help our nieghbors and even more so those less fortunate than ourselves. I learned that from the wall.


Thats about as far as I agree with your post.

Lowes sells stuff some times lower than I can by it.

You have NO Idea how long the installation took. One more hour could change the hour rate dramaticaly.

There's more to a HWH change out than a "flex hose".

How much is the town permit ??

Broad statements like yours belong with the unkind comments listed above in this post.

Scott

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JoeV

more info


I know Neighbor B so well because she's my wife's best friend and I feel guilty for steering her the wrong way. I had good intentions all around by steering her to a tradesperson.

She said he wasn't even there for a whole hour. The water lines were PEX crimped. No gas piping moved; just disconnect the gas line and reconnect to new heater. trim the Pex lines and recrimp. No copper to sweat. No unions to open. Easy access to a full, clean, well lit basement. And I KNOW there wasn't a permit pulled!

I didn't mean to sound like I was ranting. My point was that a reputable plumber ripped off a customer. The customer felt ripped off without me having told her (I didn't tell her- I was ashamed of myself and remained silent) and this is why you have home owners doing things themselves.

Even though I hate to defend college educated idiots and their arrogance, you really have see contractors through our eyes. Some of you guys aren't the best represtation of a trade. A lot of contractors I come across would pick their nose in front of a prospect and can't even construct a persuasive, intelligent sentence. These jokers don't participate in this forum.

jackchips_2

A little

different story Joe.

I am a licensed plumber in MA but on the last trip to our place in Florida my wife went with a grand daughter and her friend.

The seven year old electric water heater went as soon as she turned on the main valve.

Replacement cost-$1,000.00 which was quoted up front and she paid it gladly. I could have done the thing for the cost of a heater, a few fittings and a small propane torch.

It took just under an hour once they arrived, on time.

What price do you put on someone else's business?

Not taking sides, just expressing another story.

Jack

JoeV

Very good question.

And maybe it's none of my business but even if you paid 700 bucks for an ordinary electric water heater(I'd think you were crazy if you did), you are still paying 300 hundred bucks for labor and overhead for one hours work in a non emergency situation. Reverse it and say you paid $250.00 for the heater and $750 for the labor and overhead, any way you slice it, that's a lot of money. These numbers are huge and I have to question them.

Most educated and uneducated homeowners will question them. The uneducated because they might not have the money and the educated because they might not have the money either (teachers)and are also critical analyzers.

Leo

Sure of the price?

Joe it's ironic the heater cost 365 and the hourly charge is 365, am I missing something? Another thing is insurance, if it was done on the cheap would the homeowner expect no insurance coverage if the basement flooded and suffered water damage? There are a lot of hidden expenses and the business owner doesn't file personal income tax on the hourly rate. I had a college teacher complain about the hourly rate one time. I asked her what it would cost to send my son to her school for 4 years. She gave me a price and I asked if her pay check reflected that price, her answer no. I then said neither does mine (I am an employee), her answer was I see your point but I still don't like the charge. People will pay horrendous prices for Volvo's and BMW'w then sit in a waiting room while waiting for service. We bring that service to your house.

Leo

Unknown

sounds like

Sounds like another Mario Miao's "student" trademen's motto... Charge them a lot, screw 'em a lot, no repeated customers... Yes I have people complain about my "too high" prices which are lower than most... I tell them to call the higher rates plumbers and they come back to me...

JoeV

I am sure...

Of the price. Labor/parts was not broken down in the invoice. The breakdown of numbers is mine made while attempting to make sense of the 1100.00 charged. The plumber said new gas safety laws made the hot water heaters expensive and that he paid 700.00 for it (the $365 for a heater was taken from Lowes.com yesterday). The rest, he claimed verbally was labor.

I am sure of the price and Jack confirmed that it must be the going rate. Honestly, at those rates, all I'd have to do is work four hours per week and I'd make what I'm making now for forty hours. So you see, this is why people do things themselves, complain about the rates and sometimes get in over their heads. I feel glad the guy blew up his house but he was the exception and not the typical.

Tony_23

yeah, right

I'd like to see you work four hours a week, at even your imaginary rate, and pay the associated overhead of the business. You'd probably be lucky to clear minimum wage. I love how people equate charge rates with take-home profit.
You make $200/day in someone else's building, they match that in basic employee overhead plus all the other overhead the business incurs and maybe they charge $750/day for you. Even for the time you're surfing

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tom_49

Joe,

If you worked 4 hrs a week, you wouldnt have the good reputation like the guy your talking about. He EARNED his good reputation, probably by working hard, showing up, being honest like alot of the guys here. Whats that worth?

Why dont you go into business doing water heaters if you think its that easy. You can make $365.00 per/hr. WOW! thats $14,600.00 per wk. or $759,000.00 yearly.

JoeV

I don't think...

being in business is easy at all. In fact,I wish I could work for some of you.

I never questioned anyone's honesty nor was I trying to flame you.

I do question rates like any other HO would and compare it to what I could do it for. I also wrestle with the risk involved. My house is so old that if I hired a pro to do everything for me, I'd be homeless.

tom_49

Joe,

No flame here. I'm a big diy'er. I just know my limitations and I think when it comes to the mechanicals ( HVAC, plumb. elec.) leave it to the pro's. Thats why we have licenses.

Do the painting, flooring, finish carp. etc.
You cant burn your house down w/ those ( well, maybe ).

Tom

Plumdog_2

Sorry Joe V

You should get a plumbing license and liability insurance; buy a van and all the tools, do some advertising, and then start your own business. Soon you will see that changing water heaters at a grand a pop is not as lucrative as you once thought it was. And then you will wish you kept your regular job.