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Have a Residential Fire sprink job coming up - Mad Dog

Covers the dead end/ stale water issues with their combined systems

Comments

  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    The material of choice is CPVC

    Have not worked with it in quite a few years. Any pointers suggestions...is one brand superior? problematic? Thank you in advance. Mad Dog

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  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 5,843Member
    Check out Uponor...

    They have a "System".

    From what I understand, sprinkler protection is going to become MANDATORY under the building codes in the next round of code updates.

    How many hydronics contractors plan on jumping on to that bandwagon? It's seems to be a natural transisiton...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • kpc_54kpc_54 Posts: 15Member
    I have used Uponor/

    Wirsbo before. I used the "older system that uses the potable water and the heads each have 4 -1/2" lines to each head... pretty neat. It can be a bit time consuming at first, but it cuts down on a lot of backflow stuff and you are testing the system each time you use the cold water....they now have a loop system that is a bit more on the conventional side.kpc
  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    Thanks men.........

    I am familiar with the Uponor system - great idea. However, the house is already plumbed and this is to legalize the attic. We must sprinkler the attic and stairways all the way to the front door. I expect this to be HUGE market for us as our NYS code requires it now to finish an attic. My Village is REALLY cracking down on illegal spaces and we are in an ideal position to fill this need. As many of you know, I sprinklered my entire home in copper with silver brazed joints, so I am known around here for that...because it IS so rare. Anyway, we are going with CPVC instead of copper because the owner wants to keep cost down...although recently copper just came down. We'll see, but I would like to give CPVC a try. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    1 January 2011..........................................

    ALL U.S. NEW residential spaces MUST be sprinklered.....its about time!!!!! Mad Dog

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  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    we use blazemaster

    We use blazemaster. Works good but i recommend priming the fittings. Blazemaster makes fittings essential to firesprinklers like 3/4 hub x 1/2 brass fip adapters and if you are doing a potable system it has been approved for cold water use
  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    Wow...thats just what I was looking for

    Is it ok if I email you Eric? Mad Dog

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  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    Sure , e-mail away

    we do about 2-3 residential systems a month. we have experimented with all types of pipe, Blazemaster was by far the best install.
  • kevkev Posts: 94Member
    insurance

    The last time I was audited by my insurance company they asked if I did any residential fire systems. Apparently the rates for coverage are extremely high. Has anybody else had this situation?
  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
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  • DerheatmeisterDerheatmeister Posts: 959Member
    Domestic and Sprinklers

    Mad dog, will you share Domestic H2o with the sprinklers combined with Pex in the future?

    And if so,(Because some states are allowing this)do you see stagnating H20 as being a Heath Issues ?? I am Not tiring to be a smarty pants! Just asking? Richard
  • Rich Kontny_3Rich Kontny_3 Posts: 562Member
    KF

    Stole my thunder Mad Dog, it was always insurance issues that kept us away from fire protection. Don't expose yourself until you check with your agent.

    Rich
  • DerheatmeisterDerheatmeister Posts: 959Member
    Licenced Plumbers?

    Rich. do you know if one needs to be a licensed Plumber to install these kind of systems?

    And do the inspectors know what to "Look" for i.e dead end/ stale water issues?
  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    Dead end issue's

    Most codes don't cover dead ends. If they did they would require mandatory use of all plumbing fixtures.
  • DerheatmeisterDerheatmeister Posts: 959Member
    \"Flushing\"

    You got a point.. and ,or "flushing" or a automatic devises that does this?
  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    No flushing or auto devices

    How would you mandate or verify. Look at how many houses are empty now. How about full subdivision's that are developed but no construction. What is the concern with dead ends?
  • Shane_2Shane_2 Posts: 123Member
    Test

    Test Testxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,629Member
    insurance and

    stamped engineer drawings were two issues we ran into when I did residential sprinkler work. We also had to prove flow rates with 2, sometimes 4 heads flowing.

    We started with T-Drilled copper, and switched to BlazeMaster systems.

    With CPVC systems you need to use glycerin as the antifreeze, no PG allowed in plastic as it was in the copper, if freeze protection is required in your installations.

    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    New codes

    the new codes don't require engineers stamps, the sizing is done by the plumber, so is the drawing, and you only have to show the flow of your two most demanding heads. It is easier than sizing a water system. Nfpa13d has a worksheet in the back of the book, I re-formatted into x-cell and now now it is just plug in the the lengths of pipe and it spits out my sizing. We sometimes install and then draw the design after we are done. Two hints put at least two heads in all bedrooms, have the electrician lay out his lighting. Oh yeah one more sales tool, "If we get rid of the forced air, and I install radiant the fire sprinklers are less expensive because I don't have to design around those ugly soffits"
  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    Yes they are, but I see this as a big upcoming market

    Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    The uponor system addressed stagnation

    with a spider-web type system....each head is feed by multiple ports. I think ANY sprinkler protection is a good idea. yes, I have pulled a few heads off for boiler rooms. Mad Dog

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  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    Uponor System

    Uponor System looks like it will "flush" the system better,but not really. water will always take the path of least resistance, With all of those lines and with Low flow fixtures you need a major demand of water to ensure flow through all of those 1/2 pex lines. The wirsbo loop system would make a better radiant ceiling, than a fire sprinkler system. why worry about dead ends so much? Every house has some dead ends, un-used fixtures, rough in only plumbing fixtures, or summer/winter homes.
  • Rich Kontny_3Rich Kontny_3 Posts: 562Member
    Last winter

    I was called out to a end of building condo that had a plastic fire sprinkler system that froze, unthawed and completely flooded a half million dollar condo. Owner was out of town. Damage was over $75,000.

    Nightmares with all water laden piping systems
  • Rich Kontny_3Rich Kontny_3 Posts: 562Member
    Requires

    A certification here in Wisconsin
  • bill_105bill_105 Posts: 429Member
    The Sheraton

    in Anchorage (Not Residential) had it's main outdoor entry ceiling collapase. Below zero temps. and the system went off with no fire. It'where you pull into to check in and unload luggage. Thing went off lost all the anti-freeze and here comes the water. It froze on top of the soffit thing and kept building up, then it collapsed. This was about 20 feet high. It'a Miracle someone wasn't killed. This was back in Nov. or Dec. Lots of money changing hands here.
  • bill_105bill_105 Posts: 429Member
    The Sheraton

    in Anchorage (Not Residential) had it's main outdoor entry ceiling collapase. Below zero temps. and the system went off with no fire. It'where you pull into to check in and unload luggage. Thing went off lost all the anti-freeze and here comes the water. It froze on top of the soffit thing and kept building up, then it collapsed. This was about 20 feet high. It'a Miracle someone wasn't killed. This was back in Nov. or Dec. Lots of money changing hands here.
  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    There are 2 ways to go about it.......................

    Pay the higher premium (if you are doing alot of them) or from a seperate corporation just for that niche. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    Any piping is subject to freezing

    Even if it were allowed, I don't think I would use CPVC on commercial application. This is strictly residential and ALL piping will be contained within the homes insulative envelope. Seperate water service from street. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    I get fire sprinkler engineer drawings and stamp on EVERY job

    just in case. I use Mark Bromman of Rally Fire Protection. He is a friend and one of the most knowledgable fire sprinks guys in the USA. He has authored books and write s months articles in trade mags. Mad Dog

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  • PM Magazine says....

    Residential sprinklers will be required only if the States and municipalities approve and mandate it. On that same note I am trying to convince city officials to implement a Low Cost- High Risk Residential Sprinkler System. I'm thinking maybe 5 sprinkler heads where there is already water piping. Put a sprinkler head near the water meter, another near the boiler/ water heater whether it's oil or gas, another near the washing machine, dryer fires are common, and another above the kitchen if there is a bathroom above, there usually is. These sprinkler heads will put out a large percentage of fires for only a couple of hundred dollars. The builders don't want to put in a system that cost thousands or tens of thousands, how could they object to this? It would be a good way to introduce sprinklers to the masses. Many people are still worried about accidential discharge, if we get some smaller systems in it would build confidence.

    What do you guy's think?
    Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    Full systems in new construction

    I would only do full systems in new construction. They are not designed to put out the fire they are designed to keep it at bay so the occupants can get out. They aren't like smoke detectors that go off with false alarms, and the heads open individually. People have the movie idea of sprinkler heads that if one goes they all go. Cost, well how long does it take you to water a building? We did my beach house in flowgaurd gold 2500 sq ft 4 hrs labor.
  • Douglas HicksDouglas Hicks Posts: 69Member


    you can get a copy of NFPA 13D herehttp://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/list_of_codes_and_standards.asp

    That is probably the standard referenced in your area.

    http://www.sprinklernet.org/article.cfm?id=880

    http://www.nfsa.org/

    http://www.blazemaster.com/

    http://www.homefiresprinkler.org/

    That should keep you busy for a few minutes.....

    As a former firefighter for 25+ years, I am glad to see contractors being pro-active about sprinklers. They do not cost thousands and thousands of dollars for a residential system. With residential systems you do have the option of adding a fire alarm panel to montier the sprinkler system.
  • Erik J. HoffmanErik J. Hoffman Posts: 12Member
    Mad Dog I am wondering why

    you get all your plans stamped? I have done it both ways and have yet to have enginering help or change my plans. Does it lower your insurance exposure?
  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    Great idea, Bob

    That's quite a ridiculous worry...I'll take a water damaged house over a burned out one with dead kids. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Posts: 3,455Member
    I will take alot of pics and post them when we do the job

    As for the stamped plans: The job is in My Village and the Bldg super is VERY, VERY strict and by the book. He wants documentation on everything. Besides that, I trust Mark Bromman's 30 plus years of designing systems over mine...I can't afford to miss ANYTHING...people could DIE. As to the code issue...state by state. My Village and many in Nassau County are STRICTLY enforcing sprinklers for ANY home that has a finished attic PERIOD! If you have sheetrock in the attic...its considered finished and if one wants a C of O for it one must sprinkler the attic AND the stairwells ALL THE WAY out to the front door. When I got my insurance reduction (not as much as I thought) they also wanted copy of the plans. In my opinion architects are generally NOT knowledgable or qualified enough to design and draw a complete and common sense fire sprink drawing.....everyone one that I have seen was a model of something they pulled out of a book or computer program...you know, just like they do with mechanicals...rules of thumb. If you need open heart surgery...go to a surgeon...not your podiatrist. Mad Dog

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  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,629Member
    I think most areas

    will generally take the NFPA code, adopt and add or allow some variance from it. In the area I worked they would require outside protection also, if vegetation was within a certain distance. As many home fires in western states start from the outside in.

    The AHJ added requirements on to the residential NFPA which required proof of 4 heads flowing when outside protection was required. That can be a more expensive system when the 4 remote heads on a multi story home have to be proven. Most started out with 2" piping and requires an additional water main just for the fire protection.

    If your community is looking into residential fire sprinklers, get involved. Politicians acting as engineers sometimes make things cumbersome, to say the least.

    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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