70 year old boiler retrofit

jeremy_15

thank you for your response Steve,
Is there a new boiler system that can tie into the existing electrical and plumbing. The electrical is all honeywell and has been updated at some point (probably late 60's). I have been told that it is very sophisticated. Also the pumps are fed from 1" water lines and appear to be have been replaced shortly before I bought the place 4 yrs ago. I'm guessing that a new boiler would not support that kind of flow, however i'm far from an expert on the subject. Also, I am comforted in the fact that with the old boiler I have the ability to burn wood or coal as a back up to gas (I know I live in Canada not Ukraine and we have a very secure gas supply here, but it is a nice feature). The system costs me about $200/month during a cold period and that is without any basement insulation (by cold I mean -30c for an extended period). Once I update my basement windows and insulate to R20 it should cut that substantially so my bigger concern is reliability unless I can directly swap a new boiler into my existing infrastructure at a reasonable cost, say $5000 and keep the old beast as a back up. I wouldn't be able to haul it out anyway, it probably ways 1500lbs and has an asbestos coating.
Ps. I did have a system designed and it was a water (from my existing system) to glycol heat exchanger feeding the infloor. only benefit I can think of from this is introducing a little less oxygen into the system initially? possibly? Not sure why I wouldn't just use a mixing valve? It seemed overdone but again I'm no expert and am looking for a second opinion.

jeremy_15

70 yr old boiler retrofit

My house is heating by a 70 yr old iron boiler that was converted to natural gas from coal (Iron fireman gas burner). It has an indoor outdoor sensor and runs between 140 and 160 degrees F normally. It has 2 pumps controlled by 2 thermostats. One feeds a forced air heat exchanger for the top 2 floors, and one tee's in 2 directions to feed a baseboard heat loop and a big old radiator loop. I am doing a basement reno and have removed the baseboard heat loop. I have hammered out the floor and lowered it and would like to disconnect the rad as well and run infloor heat (in 4.5" concrete pad)off that pump. Can I do this simply by installing a mixing valve and a 3 way manifold (the infloor will cover about 550 sq ft.) and use the existing wall mounted thermostat to control the pump or do i need to get some fancy install done. ie. was quoted $6000 to install a glycol heat exchanger with seperate expansion tank and equipment. Also my existing system uses water and it looks old and a little blackish, should I switch to glycol even if i install the mixing valve option. Do i need to worry about shocking the boiler, the water returning from the existing rad already comes back really cold so i don't didn't think so. Also should I run 4 short loops so that the temperature in each loop is consistent thereby eliminating the need for monitoring each loop temperature and maybe the loop around the perimeter should be the shortest. I would really love some feedback. Don't want to mess up my old system. ps. boiler is asbestos coated and covered with paint to seal the asbestos. I'm a little worried about getting a permit because the inspector might say I have to get a Haz Mat team in here to rip her out out. Is this a ligitimate concern?

Steve Garson_2

Your question requires a lot of detail. I'll start the thread as follows:

1.Yes, you can use the present boiler, but the return-on-investment is such that a replacement boiler would be worth considering. You're wasting a lot of money on energy.

2. Radiant for the basement will be very comfortable.

3. Use multiple loops that are the same length.

4. You MUST insulate under the loops so you don't waste money heating the earth.

5. You owe it to yourself to pay a pro to at minimum, design what you need. Once the concrete is poured, there is no turning back.

Steve Garson_2

If your heating costs are that low, I wouldn't get a new boiler. You can engineer what you need with your present boiler. Just spend the few extra dollars now to make it easy to replace your boiler in the future, should it ever fail.

mark ransley

How much sq ft do you heat for 200$ a month.I have a 55 yr old boiler and am worried it can fail beyond quick repair. I know I will save 20-40% on a new unit because they heat maybe 20% as much water. Asbestos is safe if its soaking wet when removed. If it is a HW system you will save maybe 50% with a condensing unit if radiators can heat at 140f

Bob Bona_4

changing the

boiler should be your #1 priority, after roughing in the radiant loops. 70 yrs old? I mean..really. That thing holds so much water that needs to be heated up every time the burner kicks on it's not funny. And the controls. And the Iron Fireman burner. How long do you expect these things to go? Yes, the asbestos is a concern, because when the boiler takes an unexpected (?!) dump, then it's scramble time to get it abated before changeout.

I don't see any reason to have glycol in a basement radiant system, and non barrier tube should be used.

jeremy_15

I heat 1400sq ft 1st and 2nd floor through a forced air heat exchanger and about 700sq ft of basement through circulating baseboard heat and 1 old iron radiator.

jeremy_15

That is keeping the heat turned down during the day when we're at work and at night when we're sleeping using an electric heater in the bedroom, why heat the whole house to room temperature when we're sleeping. I'm sure with out these measures my heating would be substantially more but its not a big hassle. What do you mean by "Just spend the few extra dollars now to make it easy to replace your boiler in the future, should it ever fail". What changes could I make during this retrofit to make it easier later? Thank you for your input.

Bob Bona_4

careful

with that asbestos "safe" remark. You still have chain of custody issues, indirect site contamination possibilities, remaining surface hazards, etc. It IS a big deal if done incorrectly anywhere from start to finish-just the trail of contamination can start immediately. I have huge concerns with internet abatement advice.

We have no idea of other peoples capabilities or level of care or competence when it comes to DIY abatement. If no one but them ever entered the home, or if they drove their car until it went directly to the scrapyard, or if they never had animals, kids, that would be one thing, but that wouldn't be real life.

A for instance: DIY does sort of a removal. Can he be sure he never released a fiber? He then goes into the living part of the house, and takes his clothes off. Fiber on clothes release to the air, fibers from his hair release, become airborne and settle on other stuff to be brought to other parts of the house. Fibers on shoes, transfer to living floor surfaces. Kids live there, roll around on floor, now they have contamination. Dog lays on floor, then gets up on bed later, contaminates bed. Maybe kids hug the dog and get a big noseful of contaminated hair/asbestos fibers. A dog never shakes off, right? Maybe he dumps the clothes in the hamper for wash later. Now other clothes have contamination from contact. And the movement of the clothes set off more fiber spray. Or, he washes them right away. Is he sure the washer has no contamination? And future washes won't transfer fibers to other clothes?

Let's say he needs to take a drive for more garbage bags. Or lunch. Or coffee. The car seats and carpet are now contaminated.

Abatement is a very serious thing, and should be left to certified contractors who can control the job site for everyones safety.

Look at Jeremy's case. He has forced air ductwork that if fibers make it into the airstream, you have an expressway for asbestos contamination!

jeremy_15

Hi Bob,
Thank you for your input.
The reliability of the system is a big concern of mine. In the 4 yrs that I have been in the house I have had 2 repair calls. The actuator that opens and closes the hot supply that mixes with the return from the forced air heat exchanger for my basement circulating system stopped working, had it replaced. And recently I had an energy audit and when they did the vacuum air leak test on the house it sucked the boilers pilot and I could not refire it. The first guy in the house scared the crap out of me and told me it would be a whole day just to trouble shoot it and I had better replace the boiler because these things have a tendency to snowball. I got a second opinion and it turned out to be a couple of lose wires on the ignitor box (not sure what its called) anyway he had it fixed in less time than the other guy spend telling how difficult it was going to be to repair. I would love a new H.E boiler but I am guessing it would come with about a $15000 price tag. With savings of even $150/month which is on the high end, given 7 months of winter (which is on the high end)I've got a payback period of 15 yrs. So I guess the big question is how long can a cast iron boiler last, and can the gas train be replaced if it goes? The electric controls can be replaced.

jeremy_15

If I do upgrade the boiler I figure I have 2 options. 1.)leave it sit in the house for all eternity. 2.)Pay a Haz Mat team $5000 - $10000 to haul it out. I think it will sit there for all eternity. If I had to I would fiberglass the boiler to seal it. I never had any intention of a DIY removal.

Steve Garson_2

Jeremy: You'll end up paying more when you sell the house.

The asbestos abatement may not be as expensive as you think.

Once the asbestos is removed, someone who specializes in boiler removal will likely take it for $300 or so, since the iron has value as scrap.

I always look at things from a financial return viewpoint. Unless you have the cash, a 15 year return on your investment would make me keep the boiler. You can install new controls to make it work without annual failures.

jeremy_15

PS. I had a look at how the lines are set up for the basement circulating system and the hot supply is on an actuator. The return from the forced air exchanger tee's down to a 3/4" lines into the pump that feeds the basement loops and just on the other side of the pump the hot supply from the boiler gets mixed in. Since this is already a 2 loop system couldn't I tie directly into the existing setup for my infloor loops? Is 2 loops enough for 550 sq ft of infloor that is insulated to R10 using that radiant infloor insulation?

jeremy_15

HI Steve,
I live in Saskatchewan and everything is more expensive than it should be here. Trust me, nobody would haul that boiler out for $300 around here unless it was gold plated! I'm having a hard enough time finding a plumber to replace the plumbing in the basement. Had a quote of over $10,000 and that was with me doing all the excavating. To make matters worse they charged $70 for the quote. That's why I'm on this site. I wanna make damn sure I make the right choice because whatever it is it's gonna cost me!