Breitenbush System Specs.

Mark Eatherton

Gwen, You are on the right track. Doing heat loss calcs first is a requirement. Once that is done, instituting conservation efforts is second. Once that is done, you have a true handle on your loads and can begin addressing distribution system sizing. Conservation through out the distribution system (underground pipe insulation) is also critical to operations.

The mix of space heating and DHW systems is going to dictate that the system be kept extremely hot year round. As a general recommendation, I would suggest that either a separate DHW distribution system be considered (EX$PEN$IVE), or consider replacement of the existing DHW storage tank/heat exchanger/storage tank systems be replace with reverse indirects, like TurboMax or Ergomax. This would allow you to do a reset temperature on the loop, from 140 at neutral heat loss to 180 at maximum heat loss.

Also, consider the use of non electric TRV's at the points of use, including DHW generation, and the use of one of the wonderful DC-ECM variable speed pumps (WILO, Grundfos) this will conserve the wattage of consumption at the distribution system.

As for down hole heat exchanger design is concerned, I see some opportunities for increasing efficiency there with copper tube in tube heat exchanger design, and possibly a hot water injection system to again reduce wattages consumed to move fluid and heat. That will require a more thorough examination of water quality (down hole and make up) and possibly flow/thermal stratification studies to maximize performance.

All of this is going to take quite some time, and money, and it can be spread out over a wide time frame, but should not get lost in the day to day operations. Focus Radiator Ranger. You've done a lot of good work, but there is still a lot to be done. And you absolutely MUST monitor the make ups to the systems and locate and quash any leaks, or all of your work will be for naught.

Let us know if you have any other questions, or need assistance in main pipe/branch pipe sizing, or pipe material selections. We're here to help.

ME

cmannering_2

Breitenbush System Specs.

Hi Mark, Mark, Paul, Steamhead et all:

I've finally got a place to put documents for your review. These documents are not 100% accurate or complete but they give a good general overview of the system in place and recent thinking/ attempts to approach systems maintenance and design anew.

http://oregonstate.edu/~healyg

Please have a look and let me know your thoughts and or questions.

Thank You,
Gwen - Radiator Ranger

Mark Eatherton

Wow....

That's a lot to absorb. Let me get back to you. Looks like you've put a LOT of work in to it.

THanks

ME

Mark Eatherton

Questions...

generally lead to answers, and, MORE questions...

Interesting systems to say the least.

My initial gut feeling is that there is one heck of a lot more energy available to you than what you think. Mother nature, especially in the geothermal arena is one strong mutha. The south side well flow and summer/winter differentials shows a "potential" of around 172,000 and 302,000 btuH (not compensated for lesser density. I suspect that this is limited by the conductivity of the down hole heat exchanger. If a material, other than steel pipe (i.e. copper) were used, the output of that well could easily double...

1. In general (all systems), how bad are these systems leaking, or do you know? (in G.P.M. or G.P.H.)

2. What is the "make up" source of water, and what are its' constituents?

3. What condition are the main distribution (metallic) pipes in? (Anything like the radiator?)

4. Where are the expansion tanks located?

5. What means and where is air separation located in relation to the main pumps? (shown installed backwards on the drawing)

6. On the South system, there are small pumps (Gfos 1542 and 2042's) shown piped parallel to loop mains. Are there check valves on the mains between the branch connections for the pumps?

7. On the ends of the South system, there are "cross overs", are these controlled (pressure activated bypasses) or wide open valves?

8. Regarding bone headedness, has it been determined absolutely that there are NO potable hot water connections coming off of the space heating mains? (It happens....)

I'm sure that more people will chime in with additional questions as they pop up. These are the ones that came to mind in my sleep (yeah, right, sleep...).

When I was reading the blog for the community, there was a place where they had uncapped an old well, and it began flowing (artesian pressure) at a significant rate, with some serious temperatures. Did they cap it back off again? (I hope so. It is possible to drain an artesian aquifer)

In some of the pictures that have been shown of the property (I think Paul's) there was what appeared to be a plastic pipe feeding a hot spring pool. Is this connected to the closed loop heating system, or is it being pumped from another "source/location?" or what.

In general, you must locate the holes in the system and stop them from losing water, or your whole system will be trashed in short order, and any other conversations beyond that will be useless/fruitless.

To locate the leaks, I'd recommend that you begin with isolating different sections of the systems to see approximately where the leaks are. Once you have determined that, you can fine tune the actual locations using doppler leak detection, or infrared leak detection methods. Remember, the leak could be down hole, in the well... Although the pressure at the very bottom of the system would be around 334 PSI (compared to atmospheric at the surface), the "differential" pressure is nearly zero (assuming non artesian conditions in well), except for system pressurization above the atmospheric pressure, so the loop would have greater pressure than the well, hence the possibility of a down hole leak.

Take your time...

I'll be back with more.

ME

cmannering_2

System Spec. answers

Hi Mark,

Thanks for reading all of that and responding - you're hot! Of course the more I understand, I understand I don't understand much BUT I do understand more now... Thanks for your questions! I'm a little concerned we'll be harshly judged for our omissions or poor system design elements. I didn't design the system and the people that did were well intentioned and built something that has heated this place adequately for years. They did a lot of things right and some things, well - they simply didn't know and missed the mark. It can only get better from here.

I concur with you on the amount of BTUs in the ground, vs. what we're pulling out (have available) but don't yet have the tools to prove it. I'm also working on a list of recommendations re: bldg. load calcs. and where to save BTU's - as we don't utilize what's here really well yet. I'm finding this last project to be tedious and somewhat inaccurate but am slowly moving through the list building by building using Hydronics Pro as my guide. I am fairly defensive about the idea of pulling more BTU's out before we make another major attempt to tighten up the buildings and distribution system. Lucky for everyone, I'm not the only one involved and I do believe that concurrent approaches can be beneficial.

1) Leaks - it's looking like about 92 cubic feet per day from well #4; this fluctuates of course. In the beginning of Dec., it was closer to 50 cf/ day.

2) The makeup water is our domestic drinking water - it comes from the Breitenbush river (pretty clean), we run it through a series of filters (our domestic water treatment system) to remove contaminants then treat with chlorine which dissipates in the reservoir. A close look at a lab (I submitted a sample of the makeup water, a radiator section and a water sample from the system) the analysis revealed the following:

a) "Small blue and white man made fibers."
Sounds to me like PVC pipe and glue? uck.

b) "Different sediment in layers. These could be from changes in water characteristics. When sediment was examined from one side, there were different colors and variations of the mineral deposits. Many pieces showed the exact same variation of layering."

c) "Iron-based material as the bulk of the sediment. It is difficult to determine if this is from corrosion or electrolysis occurring somewhere in the system or deposition of soil/ sediment in the incoming water."

I can only believe it's both electrolysis and corrosion. We don't know the condition of radiators that were installed prior to my involvement - they had been discarded from somewhere. They may have been pulled because they were bad or for another reason.

3) For the most part and as far as I know the distribution piping is in okay condition - not clogged like the radiators. We completed the replacement of the original galvanized distribution piping on well #1 in the last 2 years (installed copper). Originally, well #4 had black steel for dist. piping but it didn't last and they dug it up and replaced it with copper. The worst dist. piping I've seen was copper (in the community village) and coming apart at the solder joints but the piping was clear. I don't have any evidence (aside from the radiators I've cut open) that the distribution piping is clogged - that internal radiator picture suggests to me that some dist. piping may be real bad (in sections - but I haven't seen it yet).

4) Yeah, where ARE the expansion tanks on well #4? Until I read some of Dan's books I didn't know there ought to be any (read about exp. tanks in Mod. Hydronic Heating but that was a challenging read for a beginner. I didn't find Holohan until later but still haven't located an expansion tank on well #4). We don't have an expansion tank on well 4.

Well #1 does have a tank and it doesn't sound clogged but it doesn't sound clear. We didn't replace it when we replaced the heat exchanger in well # 1 a few years ago - I know because somehow I got to help with the wellhead plumbing . I'm fairly certain we're not 'pumping away' though.

I've since developed a method of tapping radiators which seems to sound out clogging (I don't know if there is a correlation between the expansion tanks and radiators in terms of sound though). As I've read and learned, I've hoped that there were things that may just be different in this system. I'm realizing some of our differences may be problematic....

5) Yeah, air separation - well #1 has one at the expansion tank. Well #4 does not have air separators at the wellhead. There are automatic air bleeders in several high parts of the system - or places that time has shown consistent air clogging. As for the drawing, we've got a lot of things backwards but our pump isn't running backwards.

6) I'm not sure about check valves bet. circ. pumps and the mains. As you grown, remember I'm not an operator of this system - I'm a kind of invested investigator. I'll walk the system in the next few days and check this out. A few years ago, I worked a lot with a particular plumber friend and we did put check valves in in places but I was the chief helper and didn't always understand what I was working on (a lot like now).

7) The crossovers have ball valves - yep, ball valves. They get opened and closed. I took a picture of the A / B-row crossover this afternoon - I'll post it below.

8) Absolutely, the water from our heating system is not potable. This is known. We did have a place where... but that's been changed. We use heat exchangers to heat domestic water. Paul seemed to have thoughts on this issue - I'm interested in hearing about specifics preferring a direct email message to me or me and you for details.

Deer Meadow Well (picture included) was capped. We are flowing it a tiny bit though.

There is some of that orange piping hooked up to well #4 - as I understand it, it's for blowing off effluent. That pipe is not feeding a pool.

We do isolation checks periodically. That's how we learned about the hole in the well #1 HE a few years ago. I'm also doing a photo survey which shows different kinds of leaks - some are poorly insulated distribution piping, some are poorly insulated structures (icicles, melted roofs etc.) and and others are obvious ground leak, leaks. This is part of my BTU saving proposal project.

I'm also including a picture that shows what's changed since one of the pictures Paul posted. His picture showed a portion of the old wooden flume we used to deliver water to the Powerhouse - our hydroelectric power plant. In 2003 we replaced the above ground wooden flume with an underground plastic pipe - pictured is the metal connection between the new plastic pipe and the Powerhouse.

Also pictured is the mightiest mighty mite - that's what I call that style of radiator. It's been installed temporarily to keep that space warm.

That's it for now. I'll look at the check valves issue at circ. pumps and let y'all know what I find.

Thanks again!

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

stoverdogs

Buried Pipe

Gwen

Do you know if any of the buried pipe is insulated?

Unknown

Heat exchanger output?

Mark, how would changing the material of the in hole heat exchanger from iron to copper double the output? I understand that the thermal conductivity of iron is much lower than copper, but would it be so significant a factor in restricting output?

My feeling would be that heat output would be mainly limited by two factors:

One would be the effective surface area of the heat exchanger itself, which in this case is just a hairpin loop of pipe extending down the hole.

The second factor would be how much actual circulation of water exists in the well casing tube and the temperature distribution of the well water as a function of depth. I would assume that the hottest water is located at the bottom of the well. If there is a large temperature gradient between the top and bottom of the well, and limited convection circulation in the well tube, then there would be a given limit on the rate at which heat could be removed.

As to using a copper exchanger, my concern would be the creation of an electrochemical cell between the steel well casing and the copper exchanger, with the hot, mineral rich well water as the electrolyte. In effect, you would be creating a short circuited battery with the copper as the cathode and the steel tube as the anode. I would expect a lot of corrosion of the steel to result, unless some type of dielectric fittings were used to electrically isolate the copper exchanger from the steel casing.

Mark Eatherton

Valid concerns for sure Mike..

and if they were to use the copper heat exchanger, those concerns would have to be addressed. The design I am thinking of is a tube within a tube design, with the dip tube supplying the coolest water to the bottom of the heat exchanger. Isolation to the well casing is the least of my concerns. That could be accomplished with plastic. Isolation on the hydronic side would be done with brass.

The biggest limiting factor would be the ability of the well/aquifer to give up heat to the heat exchanger, and I suspect that it's capacity will far exceed demand. Before that decision is made, it will require an active flow test on the well to confirm production capacity. Most aquifers located in the mountains are dynamic, meaning the water is migrating, typically down hill. This is good for the design. It continuously replenishes heat to the hole.

Based on the fact that there are numerous hot wells on the property, it is also evident that the magma is closer to the surface in general, as opposed to finding cracks to work upward in, such as the case with Glenwood Springs and Steam Boat Springs and numerous other places here in Colorado.

I am extremely amazed that someone has not approached the owners with the possibility of doing commercial electrical generation!

In any case, thanks for your input and concerns. It's all good.

ME

stoverdogs

Overview

Mark

Your suggestion about commercial electrical generation brings me back to a few thoughts I had when I was there.

I am guessing you are correct about the existing wells far exceeding the current demand. I think the reason they have dug more wells in the past few years is because they thought it was necessary in order to expand their ability to heat more structures. There's likely plenty of btu's available right now to do what they need by merely correcting distribution problems.

I wonder if Gwen has any accurate water quality tests on file. Choice of heat exchanger material should be determined with that input in mind.

All the conjecture on this end is fun and interesting, but a site visit would answer many of your questions in relatively short time.

Mark Custis

I just got back from digging out the dog

We had a bit of snow here in Cleveland, today.

What a hoot to find your ranger work.
Paul and me will do you well. We have salt in the ground here buy no free heat.

I am not telling the truth, ours is not as easy to harvest.

If this water is so corrosive, what about plastic?

Mark Eatherton

Gwen, this is heatinghelp.com...

not criticism.com :-) No one is here to judge the skills/knowledge of the past workers. We just don't like people making the same mistakes, As they say, If you keep doing what you've always done, you keep getting the same results...

Also, we're of the same thoughts, conservation FIRST, proper utilization 2nd.

If there is no check valve on those smaller grundfos pumps, they're just acing like Cusinart blenders, whipping the water in a small circle, and doing little for actual system circulation.

Let me absorb what you've delivered, and get back to you.

ME

Mark Eatherton

I hear you Paul...

Eye's On tours trump photographs any day of the week. Maybe some day in the future.

ME

cmannering_2

Free Heat?

Hey Mark,

What does 'digging out the dog' mean?

I checked the temps. in Cleveland it's lookin chilly.

Thanks for your message, it made me smile.

Radiator Ranger

cmannering_2

Heatinghelp.com

good reminder - thanks. It sounds like we have some similar philosophies. I'm moving away from insane approaches (doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results - it isn't as fun as getting better).

The only blenders we want to be using here are in the kitchen... I'll get out to the cabin area and check out the plumbing - see how many check valves I can find.

Take your time this is only one of my projects and the system is just doing it's thing.

Gwen Healy

cmannering_2

Heat in the well, Wells, Insulation, PureCycle

Hi Mike and the rest of you,

As I understand it, the hottest water isn't necessarily at the bottom of the well and the HE is in the water for some length.

I think we've gone with steel in the past because of cost. I called our pipe supplier the other day and got the following quote:

2" Black steel sch. 40 21' stick is $3.58 per l/f and $1.25 per threaded end or $77.68 per. or ~$384 per 100'

2" type M copper is $6.92 per l/f or ~$692 for 100' - would it be type M?

I can see how we'd choose steel on a simple cost basis but if the performance really is X2 then it's not apples to apples. I do think there is some question about the durability of the copper in this application. I'm interested to hear about Marks' copper HE - what are the specs. on that project and where are there similarities and differences bet. the systems. Over time, we'll get there in the conversation.

Well #1 has new steel. The well #4 HE has been replaced once - we rely heavily on well 4.

I appreciate your questions Mike as they reflect some of the conversations here re: copper and the well casing etc.

Re: Marks comment about commercial electrical generation - - I found the following (attached after the lines below) somewhat inaccurate info. (we don't have a 49' well for example) about Breitenbush in a paper that reviews the power potential at geothermal intensive sites in OR. It references Chena Hot Springs in Alaska - they're using something called Purecycle200 by Carrier Corp. to generate electricity from geo water that is 164F - they use cold water to create an extreme temperature difference (expansion . contraction cycle). I haven't been there yet but I'm interested. Here is that link: http://www.yourownpower.com/Power/

Also, last quarter I used PureCycle as the focus for a presentation re: emerging technologies. If you're interested, I've placed a copy of a presentation called CEMPureReverseCyclePower.pdf at: http://oregonstate.edu/~healyg

Ironically, there are high powered BPA lines at one edge of the land but we're not tied into them.

Paul mentioned drilling wells - there have not been any wells drilled on this or adjacent property since the early 1980's - we haven't been looking for heat by drilling wells.

We don't have recent info. on water yet - but that's on a to do list.

Paul also asked about insulation around the buried pipe. There are basically 3 styles of in ground insulation on the distribution piping.

1) Something I think is called the Rickwell system. It was mixed of 2 parts and poured into a wooden box surrounding the pipe. Looks to me like Great Stuff but it's not the greatest stuff for this application. This is the material that surrounds much of the original dist. piping in the community village.

2) Pipe insulation surrounded by pumice wrapped in some mil. thick plastic.

3) Closed cell form / rubber insulation.

Paul is right about a site visit there is nothing like direct experience.

That's it for tonight - radiating rainbows

Gwen Healy

-------------------------------
http://geoheat.oit.edu/pdf/tp124.pdf
Breitenbush Hot Springs
There are five wells and one spring listed. There is a wide range of temperatures from 78 to 141oC (172 to 286oF) and the depths very from 150 to 2457 meters (46 to 749 ft). The two hottest wells are also the deepest and shallowest. They are located within the Breitenbush area and five miles from Idana with a population of 289.

The information below was taken from the Breitenbush website (I wonder what year - gwen)
http://www.breitenbush.com

Breitenbush Retreat and Conference Center is a worker-owned cooperative with workers and their families living as an intentional community and eco-village on 154 acres of wildlife sanctuary in the Willamette National Forest.

After looking over the Breitenbush website especially their sustainability page and I doubt they would be interested in geothermal power.

Detroit
Breitenbush Hot Springs

Space Heating
Capacity 0.4 MWt Annual Energy Use: 1.1 GWh/yr CO2 emissions saved: 880 tons/yr Temperature 212oF

Resort/Spa
Capacity 0.3 MWt Annual Energy Use: 2.1 GWh/yr CO2 emissions saved: 1680 tons/yr Temperature 212oF

The abundant hot springs have long been a destination for those seeking healing, rejuvenation and community. Three Meadow Pools are lined with smooth rocks and overlook the river. The four tiled Spiral Tubs are aligned in the cardinal directions with increasing temperatures. They are adjoined by the cedar tub cold plunge. The Sauna is a whimsical cedar cabin resting atop the bubbling waters. The cabins are kept cozy year round with heat from the Earth’s waters.
------------------------------

Mark Custis

Gwen

We had a foot of snow and the dog is a Bassett hound. Her nose is about 8 " off the ground. She is equiped with 4 leg drive, but not snow paws. She was stuck in a drift.

Mark Eatherton

Leaks...

That's around 1/2 GPM. That's a LOT of water coming in, carrying minerals and oxygen. Focus on finding that FIRST, or all other efforts will be for naught.

ME

tim smith

I am thinking that depending on the ph of water and or

other somewhat aggresive water quality that Cupronickel might be a better choice than copper. This again would be dictated by water quality analysis prior to decision. I did not see what lifespan was on steel, maybe lifecycle cost could be factored in. Just rambling on to see whether some better options may be had.

Radiator Ranger

Diggin out the dog

4 leg drive A mini snow plow that creates tunnel vision...

And I though it was somehow a heating phrase.

Gwen

Radiator Ranger

1/2 GPM!

That is a good piece of data. I went out looking for any obvious leaks and only found one possibility. The search continues.

So far, only 2 of the circ. pumps have check-valves (out of the 6 I examined) and they are both in the same sub-system.

While I was out looking for an obvious leaks, I took a series of photos which show how much heat we're giving up to the ground. I made a presentation of the photos which was shared this AM (by someone else - I'm off-site for a few days). I'll post that presentation in the next few days.

Is there a formula for figuring out how much heat buried 2" copper pipe can give up to the ground? I could use this to show how much heat we're dumping etc.

Over the past week I've been convincing myself it'd be a fairly straight forward project to dig up the Northside distribution piping to insulate and rethink/ work the problem spots. The 3 best reasons to do this on a large scale are:

1) the probability of success (saving BTU's and improving system delivery and longevity) is very high.

2) Focusing on the N-Side doesn't interrupt guests but allows major system improvements to be made.

3) It's the most effective and effecient approach (at this point) - to peck away it improvements is okay but offers less realized impact and leaves known trouble spots which will be problematic until addressed.

The overall economy and how our business goes in the coming months will determine the economic viability of this idea. I think it'll cost more in labor than anything but I have not priced various insulation options. We've got one person who's the best digger ever - he's already said he can dig up the whole thing in less than a week but he's an optimist... There are many more conversations to be had before we know we can do this - but I'm hopeful.

Till Soon,
Gwen Helay

Radiator Ranger

Whew,

that's a lot for me to take in. I'll read that post a few times over to let it sink in.

The leaks will be getting more attention in the short term - I think you're right, we've got to tend to that issue in particular.

We use TRV's in a lot of places but not at the DHW exchangers. I've got to think about that a bit.

There are 2 sections on the N-side that need redesign but in the great scheme of things this shouldn't be a big deal. Over the next little while, I'll write something up then ask about pipe sizing etc.

As I understand it, the water sample is an expensive one. I'll call about this this week to see what's really involved. That's a next step after taking care of what we have - but it's not an entirely seperate conversation.

Thanks for your help, it's given me a way to refocus my efforts and move again into the realm of systems maintenance. I chose radiators for a lot of reasons but a primary one is that no one else had any interest (people seem daunted by the weight of radiators which is understandable). This gave me an independent project that has helped me build confidence while learning about and making system improvements.

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

Mark Custis

Dear Abby

I mean Gwen, aka radiator ranger, it is only a heating term for wannabe hydronics guys from Cleveland. You post well. It you learn 1/2 of what this group types to you. Your community will be warm and prosper.

Mark Custis

My wife noted

That Ben Franklin says "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I gauge you to be like my daughter, who is is Washington DC trying to help us save ourselves.

I move heat for a living, I just get it like I was hardwired about moving electrons.

The folks here like your ability to learn and will fill you with wisdom and knolledge.