Can the mains be vented too quickly?

narcaparbebra

narcaparbebra

I don't trust the recommendation from the heating guy who didn't measure the pipes and I don't know the options regarding main vents.

If it matters, this is a 3 story, 6 unit condo building, ~9000 sq ft. The existing vents are Dole #5, at least 8 years old--definitely need to go. A quick estimate done last year suggested the vents are too small.

A couple of days ago, Brad White explained how to measure the mains to determine vent size. Unfortunately, I can't get into the basement for the next few days and I need an answer before then.

The condo board is about to hire a guy to balance our one pipe steam system who's proposal includes: "Radiator valves should be in proper operating order so that you can turn them on or off or even leave them in a middle position, which would help adjust or control the heating. Some may have to be repacked so they don’t leak in the middle position and..." He doesn't know what he's doing--I'm hoping to at least get the right vents on the mains.

Thank you

mark ransley

I always thought radiator valves are left open, so I wonder how will he balance it, by closing valves I bet, then tenants just open them and you are where you started unbalanced and over heating. I use Gortons to balance radiators they are in 5 sizes and tenants cant adjust them like they always do. Balancing is a job and can change when its warmer out. And im sure a few painters or floor men have removed radiators and did not angle them right, start there.

Unknown

Hi-
here's some info for you.

On Main Vents-
A Gorton #1 has over 4 1/2 times the venting of Dole #5

A Gorton #2 has almost 15 times the venting of a Dole #5

Above info. from: - "Balancing Steam Systems"

http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-138

Generally speaking: on main vents, you can't "overvent"
Here's a good article on main vents. Note: The pictures of multiple Gorton vents. (#2s I believe)

http://gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415

It sounds as though your condo board is about to waste some money. The guy, they are about to hire, obviously knows zero about balancing one pipe steam systems. What he proposes almost guarantees water hammer.

Here's a couple of articles on the subject for you:

This one is an old tech bulletin from Danfoss who make TRVs (Thermostat Radiator Valves) Take a look at the paragraph labeled #2.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/217.pdf

This is another article on "Water Hammer in Steam Systems"
It's written by Dan Holohan. Take a look at the paragraph labeled : "It's one-pipe steam, and the supply valves aren't fully opened."

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=203

Brad's a real pro so any advice he gives you is right on the mark.

As I haven't read your previous post I'm not sure what problems you are having with your system though obviously the first thing is to get the air out of your mains as quickly as possible so that steam can rapidly get to your radiators. After that is accomplished you can then balance the radiators and/or use TRVs

There are some very sharp steam pros on this board. You might tell us where you live and maybe one of them is near` by and could help your condo board.

- Rod

narcaparbebra

Thank you very much for the quick response. If we can't over-vent, I'm going to recommend the Gorton #2. I'll also check the links re the Gorton vents and the other material.

Re the board--these folks don't the first thing about steam and it appears that nothing I say or do will change this. (I bought Lost Art of Steam Heating almost 2 years ago, but no one has ever taken up my offer to circulate the book; I even set up a website with info about one-pipe steam systems in general, as well as info particular to our building.)

In case anyone's interested in what passes for servicing a steam heating system in Chicago, I'm attaching the proposal. Identifying info removed, although I don't know whose identify I am protecting from possible embarrassment--the guy who wrote the proposal or the condo board that accepted it.

Supply House Rick

do not hire the knucklehead!!

if you thought you had problems before, just wait until he is finished. the valves cannot be used to control the heat [in my opinion, they should never have been put on to begin with!!!]

replacing vents only requires someone with mechanical common sense. you will have enough guidance from here, and just need the help of the practical helper.--nbc

Unknown

$165? .. Wow! He's giving you a "REAL" deal on the Dole vents!
The best main vents are Gortons. Here is a link which sells: Gorton #1s for $18.95 and Gorton #2s for $52.95

http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=302&brandid=

Two of the links I gave you in the previous post talked about radiator valves can't be left "half open" as I thought you might need some written sources to back you up.

narcaparbebra

I appreciate all the advice and comments. I'm going to send the info to the Board. For the past couple of years I've been trying to generate some appreciation for what we have or, at the very least, some interest in proper care of the system. (My dad was in the plumbing-heating business his whole life and I happen to find steam heating interesting, in and of itself.)

If the board goes through with this contract, I'm washing my hands of the whole thing.

BTW: these people are not stupid (in the convention sense, anyway); every single one with a college education, at least half with graduate degrees. Nevertheless, I bet most of them still think that steam circulates through the building (i.e., like hot water heating).

narcaparbebra

Thank you for this followup. I looked up the Gorton prices after I read your first note and--due to the considerable price difference between Gorton #2 and Dole #5--I was wondering if I had found the correct vent.

What do Dole vents do to justify $165/each--crawl up the pipe and screw themselves into place?

Unknown

Found a price for you on Dole #5s of $122.14. As everyone on here pretty well uses Gortons for main vents I was curious exactly what a Dole #5 cost. Judging from the other Dole vent prices on this list the #5 could be gotten else where at a lower price.

http://www.porterpipe.com/html/web price sheets/(29)PsStmhwt.pdf

I can understand what you are going through with your condo board. It's hard to get anyone to read a book unless they are interested in the subject. What you might do is look on this board for one of Dan's one page articles on steam heating which they might read. Much easier to get someone to read a page rather than a book!

Unknown

I haven't bought Gortons from State Supply but I would say that it's a 100% sure thing that they are the same. (A "Gorton #2" is a "Gorton #2 " Why the price difference? No idea other than some companies just aren't competitive in certain areas but are`in others.

Don't pay too much attention to the "used on long mains or mains on the cold side of a building". The thinking here, I believe was to try to "balance" the mains. The better approach, is to get the air out of the mains as quickly as possible so that steam can get to the radiators. You then "balance" the radiators. Balancing the radiators doesn't make much sense if you don't have steam there in the first place.

This is the link I put in one of my earlier posts.

http://gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415

It is a link to Gerry Gill's website's section on venting.
Gerry and Steve Pajek are "the gurus" on venting and wrote the book on venting ("Balancing Steam Systems-Using a Venting Chart")

Notice the pictures of the multiple Gorton #2s they use to fast vent the mains. I probably should have mentioned this in more detail in my earlier post. I just wanted you to see these pictures in answer`to your question "can the mains be vented too quickly". As you can see the question is: "How many Gorton #2s should we use?" rather than deciding on the size/type of just one individual main vent. (Gerry explains all this on his site.)

The main goal is to get all the radiators (rooms) to heat as quickly as possible. You mentioned some rooms getting too hot - this can be controlled by the use of TRVs.

- Rod