need help finding cheap semi temporary solution to boiler leak

Mark Custis

we think this stuff up all the time.

ps.

you need a boiler.

Andrew_23

Need Advice for boiler leak

Hey everybody. I have a building in NYC whose boiler is leaking and I'd like it to make it to the mid or late spring so I don't have to pay for a temp boiler outside.

Specifically the leak is in the mud leg, leaking into the section where the flame is. I don't know a whole lot of boiler lingo.. just jumping into this. I have opened a large panel on the side of the boiler and taken pictures from the inside, which are included. What you are looking at is the inside of the fire area facing the exterior of the mud leg which is leaking in.

The boiler is original and probably around 100 years old.

My brother and I currently have been pouring in about 2 containers of Seal Weld every day for three days. It lasts about a day and lessens the leak but has not plugged it. We used corn meal about a week ago and it lasted a few days but have not tried oat meal.

Basically I just need advice with possible plugging products, advice on whether it can be welded and how long that might last (assuming the surrounding metal is weakened as well). Or any experiences or thoughts you may like to add.

I appreciate the help!

ttekushan_3

Water legs

Seems they rusted where the baffle was welded. Typical. I can't tell you the condition of the base of the water legs so who knows. A welder could tell you after close inspection.

If the area is weak enough, you probably shouldn't risk tapping in a shim of pine. Ancient books show this method as a temporary fix and it works since the pine gets wet and expands into the hole. I actually did this to a cast iron boiler once to get it through a short but severe springtime cold snap. It ran the rest of the season.

Considering the look of that area, I'd try to feed steel wool through the hole and hope that your sealer of choice is able to build into the steel wool and stop the leak.

-Terry

Andrew_23

That is really interesting about the pine shims, I am definitely going to feel if the metal feel stiff when I go in there next. I think you are right though in the metal being too weak to risk it.

I love the steel wool idea. I am going to explore it more and possibly try it tomorrow. Has anyone else ever tried that or have any thoughts on it? To go in again means shutting the boiler down for several hours and many pissed off tenants so I need to be quick but (semi) prepared.

_Andrew

Andrew_23

I know!

God, I know! haha. I'm just trying to mitigate the damages by moving the job to the spring, so I'll only need a temp water heater as opposed to the $5K/ week boiler. It's going to be quite expensive but the truth is, problems have been coming like dominoes over the last two weeks - if it keeps going it won't make sense to hold out till spring.

I am currently trying to get estimates and seeing what my options are.

Mark Custis

Andrew

I feel your pain.

Steel wool might work.

oil-2-4-6-gas

what part of the city are you in?? --steam or water ? pine shims won't work on the inside of the chamber -- you can try some marine jb-weld putty --but you will have to protect it from the heat from the flames --put some firebrick in front of it--what brand/model boiler do you have ?? -----just so you know --a lot of welders will want/need the boiler off for 24hr. before they go in to repair ----depending on where you are i might know someone who can look at it for you --and patch if its possible--------how about apicture of the complete boiler --

tim smith

Hot water or steam as asked before?? How big of a boiler is it

also how big is the boiler room. Big enough to put another boiler beside old one? and pipe up boiler in place while other is still working? A welder could probably come in and do a mud leg repair for now. May be somewhat pricey but may get you by. We usually only need boiler down for 5 or 6 hrs prior to having welders in but that repair may take more than a day to do. Just .03 worth.

Andrew_23

It's a little late for me to go down now and look but I believe the maker is "Kiwanee", which I'm told is also the maker of locomotive boilers back in the day.

It is a steam unit for a 19 unit building in the Bronx. Quite old with lots of monkey riggings so it probably barely resembles it's original self.

Andrew_23

pics to come.. 10 min.

ok, I'm going to go run down and take some pics of the room and boiler. Be back in 5.

Andrew_23

Ok, so here are pics in the boiler room. It isn't the neatest. We've been down there quite a bit lately getting ready to make future changes.

You can see the sump pump is at the bottom of the stairs. I spoke to someone about re-routing the stairs to the left, and having the new boiler strait in front of where the current stairs end. Then hopefully we could have less down time.

Garret_9

Andrew, I wish I could help... I'm just a homeowner with a steam obsession.

But I will say this... I feel for you.

That's a beast of an old boiler... good luck figuring something out so you get through the heating season.

Okay I do have one suggestion. JB Weld makes another product called "Water Weld" which can bond underwater... you might try that stuff.

ttekushan_3

Funny its a Kewanee

Excellent boilers, but I had one that sprung a leak. Old Kewanee box boiler, taller than it was long, two pass. In a convent.

I had to babysit that backfiring box boiler until it could be welded and a few new tubes installed. It was that or I would have had a bunch of frozen nuns on my hands. That would have been bad.

Yes, it was replaced the following summer.

Freezing Catholic nuns is bad Karma. At least thats the convent-ional wisdom.

Okay. I'll stop now.

-Terry

If you try the pine route, use the epoxy as well. The firebrick is a good idea to keep all that radiant heat away from the repair. The epoxy may also work with the steel wool, as a substrate that will also allow the stop-leak to hold that area together when the epoxy tries to pull away from the rust.

piperbob

have you tried calling atlas boiler on webster ave.?
they been around a long time, they should be able to fix you up.

bob

Erich_3

Miura Steam Boiler

When you do replace your boiler in the spring I suggest that you look at the Miura steam boilers. They are the most efficient steam boilers and they should save you a lot of money in fuel oil costs. They are also rather compact and very reliable.Here is a link to the company.

http://www.miuraboiler.com/

an old wrench puller

The best

The best leak compound I ever used was Hercules boiler seal,

http://www.herchem.com/Products/heatingproducts.html

I once drove a '66 dodge dart whose radiator had rotted out to due the mice building a nest agenst. The old leaves and other stuff ate a good sized section out of the bottom corner of the radiator. No replacements were available locally, so I dumped a little Hercules boiler seal in it and drove the thing, literally for years.

tim smith

Andrew, it looks like in that room there is plenty of room to

install another boiler, prepipe boiler in place and then do the switch over in a day or so. Just a thought but don't see much issue. Man that boiler is uglyyyyyy. I hope the new boiler will be better kept up. Tim

nicholas bonham-carter

old kewannee

this would be another good reason to keep the pressure down as low as possible while the leak-stop is curing.--nbc

Andrew_23

Well the boiler is a 100 years old and is a conversion from coal to oil, so over the years with god knows how many repairs it can definitely start looking ugly.

I had an Atlas welding Co guy in about 20 minutes ago and he said there is no point doing any temporary welding fixes because the bill may end up being half the price of a new boiler. He recommends pouring in oatmeal, so I am going to try that today. I used cornmeal about a week and a half ago and it held up for a week or so... then switched to this Seal Weld product which isn't doing anything really. I think the oatmeal should do much better and if it doesn't hold I'm going to get in there and cram in steel wool and try again.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

A friend of mine

Used the steel wool and sealer and it got him through a winter, it's too bad the boiler ONLY lasted 100 years.

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Andrew_23

yeah i definitely wish it could last longer! Do they often last much longer?

nicholas bonham-carter

new boiler or repair the old

one thing you can look forward to, would be lower fuel [probably much less] use with a new boiler. you might even look into switching to gas. just make sure you get a proper maintainance program in place, as the new ci boilers with their lower water content, and higher efficiency, will be less forgiving with deferred maintainance.

get a copy here of "the lost art of steam heating" so you will be better able to comunicate with your installer.

if you have a choice, go with gravity return. if it worked 100 years ago, it can be made to work today. in a vertical building arangement it works better [for us at least]. it's one less mechanical element to fail during a cold friday night!

the installation of the new boiler is of supreme importance, if you are going to have a quiet, economical, even heating system. no matter how long the installer has been around, make sure the new one is installed as the mfg. specs-without short cuts.--nbc

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

No, I'm just kidding

100 years is a long time! That boiler is on it's last legs, at best I would hope to get a few more months out of it. MAKE SURE your low water cutoff is working, if you lose all the water, you could start a fire. I won't seal those because of the liability. Thanks, Bob Gagnon

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

oil-2-4-6-gas

i just saw the pics yeah that boilers too small to be worth repairing the mud-leg --you have enough room for a Correctly sized boiler in there --right now --keep putting sealer in it for the season ---you will be surprised at the size difference of the new 1 ----make sure when you get prices on a replacement --that they measure the radiators --and size the boiler accordingly ---there are a lot of things to be done there DO NOT GO WITH THE LOW BIDDER --IT WILL cost you more for a long time --and upgrade the control that Heat Timer isn't the most efficient for your application ---Nice boiler rm. at least you have an outlet and a light ( it looks like a lot of the dungeons out there) --///////WAS that DOn who came from Atlas ?

Andrew_23

No, Jimmy from Atlas. Great guy. He gave a good honest assessment.

Too small? That's the first I've heard that. Most pros I've had in over the years have said it is way more than I need and it's overkill for the building. And that it could probably heat my building along with the surrounding buildings. The replacement boilers I am considering all are smaller substantially.

nicholas bonham-carter

replacement

ask about 2-stage firing for your new boiler-it could be a real economy. i also second the advice above about the correct sizing of the replacement: from the radiators and not from the building. use a vaporstat for your new setup, set for 5 oz. pressure.

flax seed is also used as a stop leak [mix with oatmeal?].your local health food store will love you!--nbc

Andrew_23

It's the Bronx - no health food here! Lol

I'll definitely take the sizing seriously and I'll keep you all posted with pics of the new setup. It should be pretty interesting. I have a lot of learning about new systems to go. Just flipping through half the posts here makes me realize I desperately need to educate myself.

nicholas bonham-carter

portable emergency boiler

you may find a portable boiler, but connecting it up to the existing heating system could cost the same as installing a permanent boiler.

do i take it that this building is new to you, and you are still finding surprises? when you get through with the install, you will be surprised how much better the system is, lower fuel cost, etc. don't be tempted to take any shortcuts, deviate from mfgs instructions with the installation, or it will be bad results, and you will have to redo it.--nbc

P.S. why not get a good low-pressure gauge [gaugestore.com 0-3 psi] and a vaporstat [this will also be used on the new one] to keep the pressure at 12 OUNCES. that will help the oatmeal stay in place. make sure your low water cut off is working perfectly. if your local steam installer does the work, you can get a "feel" for his abilities, for the replacement. if the boiler is so much larger than needed maybe it could be down-fired to further reduce the strain on the oatmeal. it will cost a few franklins, how does that compare to your winter fuel cost?

it's ironic that most people take oatmeal to stay "regular", but here it is being used for the opposite purpose!--nbc