where is the quality control??

Timco

Where is this industry headed? Everything costs more, but just this season I have had mod/cons with faulty ignitors and gas leaks, bad pilot assemblys on CI cat 1 boilers, bad pressuretrols in just 1 season, steam traps that are bad out of the box and only good for 3-5 years I am told, vents that are leaking out of the box, air removal devises that DO NOT remove air, valves that do not close fully or leak from packing, and so on. What the !@#$ is going on with quality control or pride in reliability? How is it that steam traps from 1900 are still working but new ones are made for 3-5 years? Reliability is going down hill, and failing boilers / parts negate a otherwise great install, period. Maybe we need a section of the Wall dedicated to junk parts, and good parts. When is it acceptable to name names and call junk what it really is? I have too much going on to keep revisiting installs finished months ago for nuisance issues on junk parts...How do you feel about tossing out names of problem parts / boilers? What is etiquit?

Tim

Darrell_7

I'll add to your list. As a serviceman I hate to replace an older "motorized zone-valve" with a newer run date one...the first one lasted 20 years...I know the new one won't last 2-3 years...the manufacture keeps insisting that it is a wiring issue. I also hate to replace an older "expansion tank" that has been there for 20 years or more...the new one will go flat in 1 year...the manufacture says I'm the only onethat ever complains. Don't even get me started on "oil pumps". The seals used to go bad on the spares on the shelf...I have to keep two on the truck now...the manufacture blames reformulated heating oil. There's another thread about thermo-couples...I actually own a thermocouple tester...there is no point in using it, just replace the thing every year. I can't count how many times I've cringed to have to replace an old "pot type ignition transformer" with a new electronic one. I know, I know, they are more earth friendly...and that's good, 'cuz the local landfill is getting filled up with the new ones that just don't have what it takes.

Here is what I hear nearly every day. "My boiler lasted 25 years with only minimal maintenance and almost no component failures. Since you worked on it and changed the old stuff out some of the new parts break every year." My only answer is, "yes, I know." It is really tempting to look at the bottom of the box and note where these new parts are made...but, that is not politically correct...and I don't see any move to change the problem.

I traveled 120 miles one way today to service some very good customers of mine and while having coffee with one old-timer this very subject came up, (along with his refusal to listen to the inauguration, but, that's a whole other story!), and he made one comment that was hard to argue with..."The 'Global Economy' that everybody is so proud to have brought us into, is really the 'Global Least Common Denominator'. I'm eternally grateful, (still quoting), that the B-17 I flew over Germany wasn't built in Mexico or China...I don't think it would have gotten me home."

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I agree, this has gotten out of control....

4 out of 5 Cast iron boilers I installed last year had gas valves that didn't work properly, both standing pilot and spark. I just replaced an aquastat on a 3 year old boiler. I have replaced a number of stack dampers on newer boilers, both under recall and not, which I rarely used to. Pressure controls that are useless. I have also replaced 2 MCBA boards recently, one bad after 3 seasons and another improperly programmed from the factory. I had one like that previously, but I had access to the proper settings. Now no access, so the board is going back to the manufacturer.

BTW Nearly all these components have the same name on them.

Boilerpro

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Bob Bona_4

almost every

4006 aquastat lately, and I do a lot of them on ST200 tanks, have been so erratic in operation it's not funny anymore. I shouldn't have to jiggle, wiggle and try to perform magic to have something work out of the box.

I'm getting really tired of having to field engineer/improve just about anything I touch in order for it to work right.

gerry gill

yup, i have a saying-

the first guy to get laid off at the factory is the quality assurance inspector.

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The Boiler Dr.

So TRUE ... so true

I feel I am spending almost 25% of my time dealing with "warranty issues" that really are nothing other than lack of quality control. Why should I feel forced to carry $400 circuit boards for equipment less than 5 years old. As someone else stated here "look at the name of the manufacturer and point of origin on the component" -- lo cost usually equals lo quality!!

Timco

My wife was the first to point out the country of manufacture, but it is made there to the parent company's specs, period. If Hwell specs a rubber gasket or component, is it used, or a cheaper one subsituted? And if the assmebly process is the problem, after the first 1000+ came back under warranty, I sure as hell would not just let it continue. My biggest complaint is that it is just not fair to you and me, or the customer. Everyone gets screwed, but hywell still has our $$ for the original part. (I use hywell because they inspired this and another thread) Junk...all junk I tell 'ya.

Off today to replace a trap that was in for 2 years and is now letting steam just fly by...


Tim

Derheatmeister

\"Professional site\"

I to am finding a increasinly "Failure Rate" out of the Box.

So i am bench testing some of the parts and carry two of the smaller parts on the trucks

Very frustrating and time consuming!
Also, when i receive a part i mark it with a Magic marker the Place of purchase and the date of purchase.
then when i install the part i mark the Installation date on it with a "Magic Marker"

Yes it may be time for a "Vent site" or a " Cross examining site" so that ONLY THE PROFESSIONAL can State they're findings over the live Span and operation of the Parts.
One must be fair and keep in mind that sometimes a part may have been "Uberused" and was not applied in the proper way i.e. Residential part in a Commercial application, or the life may have been shortened because of short cycling.


Again,I do not think this is the place to "Talk" about this since Customers that do not understand Heating may be Watching and also the "Talk" can turn into a "Bashing" of a manufacture which that may not be justified due to an Uneducated installer.

Dan,maybe it is time for a "PROFESSIONAL ONLY" section of this site?

Naturally a screening process will be needed for the professional to join and be able to post, kinda like a test of the Knowledge or level of experience of the Pro.

Also the web master which has to be unbiased like a reverie reserves the right to get rid of nasty post..

[Deleted User]

It's always acceptable to name names.

Tim, you ask "When is it acceptable to name names and call junk what it really is?" I say always!

Since hydronics represent only a small percentage of heating systems in the US, there is unlikely to ever be a Consumer Reports "Annual Boiler Issue." Therefore, the only objective source of such information is you pros out in the field. Dan's site is the best place to share it, if he doesn't object. And, given the number of manufacturers who follow things here, doing so might shame them into achieving higher quality standards.

an old wrench puller

yep

And its across the board in the industry.

Buy a dozen 90s, at least one will be unusable. doesnt matter copper, BM, gal. whatever.

Many fittings are tapped crooked. Cant even make a streight header anymore. One will screw on way too far, the next barly start.

That chinese Pipe that everybody gets now wont thread for beans. Its got all the right stamps on it but just aint the same. I proved it wasnt the machine by digging up a used piece of good old made in the USA pipe. what a difference. I even had some pipe labeled "Romania" show up on the job. Whas better than the chinese, but still poor.

Pick up a brand new nut and try to thread it on a new bolt by hand. the threads of both are covered with burrs.

Even flux and dope are being made overseas now. How long before we start seeing problems with them? will we know before its too late or will the leaks just spring eternal?

Its a sad sad situation. That retirements looking better and better.... just a few more years.....

Perry_5

Unfortunately...

Too many Americans - and too many Bean-counters... have been brainwashed into believing that low cost is equal - or at least good enough.

You can't get quality for the lowest cost.

The other problem major problem in the U.S, is that there is no ASTM police (hence, many items are stamped as meeting standards that do not). No one in the U.S. is enforcing claims of meeting standards.

I am leary of what functions the federal government does (beyond the military and federal courts); but I do think that there needs to be some kind of "standards" police. Companies should be required to prove that they are meeting the standards they are claiming to meet before they can put the products into the distribution system - with very significant and immediate implications if they aren't.

On a related area: Viessmann, as a follow-up to a previous question in the "practical mod/con" thread has directed me to the standards that they meet on their product. I've attached a copy of the new ones that Viessmann is designing all new product for.

Is there not an equivalent standard in the U.S.?

The other comment is that the concept of this new standard is that all electrical/electronic functions will be on one circuit board - which will likely be standardized across product lines to eliminate the amount of spare parts and trouble shooting time (the circuit board will include the ignition transformer, etc).

On existing products - the old afcor standards for most existing Viessmann product was a design life of 12 years and/or 500,000 cycles. More details in the "Practical Mod/con thread.

I note that these design lives essentially eliminate the use of aluminum electrolytic capacitors in these controls as they typical have design lives of only a few thousand hours maximum (10 years is 87,600 hours). While a lot of things go into how long a capacitor is expected to last and you can easily double to quadruple the expected life by proper design - it would be very hard to stretch a 2000 hour design life capacitor to 80,000+ hours. There are other capacitor designs that start out with rated design lives in the 80,000 to 120,000 hour range - which then can be stretched out a number of times by proper design if needed.

Perry

Perry_5

So what is a \"Professional\" and why would they act any different

Several years ago I started a thread on just what it meant to be a heating professional.

Was it level of knowledge? Was it a willingness to learn? Was it demonstrated excellence in application and service?

Nope: When all was said and done -- the overwhelming conclusion of the "Professionals" on this site was that it was only that the person was gainfully employed in the home heating business (have truck and tools, have a company name, and working in the business). None of the items I listed above really mattered.

Which explains why I can't seem to find a single heating contractor in my area that knows a good fraction of the information commonly published by Dan and by the experts on this site. I've read enough post and met enough other people to know that mine is not a rare occurance. Let's just say that finding a heating contractor who knows anything about the older systems is difficult at best; but, by definition - they are "Professionals." Nothing says they have to understand heating.

The other major factor is that people are people. Human nature reigns strong. I would expect that get together any group of people and bashing of a single mfr will start to occur. I also expect that perhaps some mfrs need to be bashed, and some praised.

So what makes you think that a web site specifically open only collection of people nominally working in the field will produce any different results?

While there are customers who in fact do not understand a lot of things (and are the most difficult customers). Most customers are willing to learn and do understand a lot. Given the nature of the web you are also not likely ever to have to personally deal with any customers who do not understand your point of view - in fact you may be screening out the ones you don't want by letting them here the truth (or your viewpoints). Another thing I have to wonder (and a rule I try to adopt). If you feel you cannot say it in front of the customers (your workers, your boss, your wife, etc). Should you be saying it at all?

Now I am not saying that you should not talk about things. In fact, people who have good relationships (personal - business) have learned how to be able to talk about the things that need to be discussed. My point is why do you think that the general public would not understand that some companies make better quality items than others. That all companies can have problems - and that a key consideration is is how the company responds to the problems that do occur.

I wish you the best and may your business do very well.

Perry

Darrell_7

First, I am impressed with your breadth of knowledge and ability to articulate it. I appreciate your willingness and eagerness to share it with us. I learn much from you.

Not everything that comes out of Europe is quality stuff. They don't do everything better over there. This thread isn't about advertising for Veissmann...other threads have done that to death. I am not saying, in any measure, that they do not make high quality equipment, or that their standards are not the envy of the industry. Their market share is small, their equipment is prohibitively expensive, and WE STILL HAVE TO ADD THE CRAPPY PERIPHRAL COMPONENTS THAT THIS THREAD WAS STARTED TO WHINE ABOUT!

It is easy to say,"insist on higher quality", but the reality is that we have to use what is available in the industry. In this area, you will typically find three manufacture's of zone valves; Honeywell, Taco, and the odd Caleffi or White Rodgers. I replace literally hundreds of V8043 valves every year, and the manufacture refuses to acknowledge any problem. As a practical matter, it isn't smart to put in "orphan equipment" meaning the only one in town because sooner or later you are gonna need parts or replacements. As far as I know there is only one manufacture of expansion tanks represented in this area...Amtrol...I replace three or four a day sometmes.

Some years ago Taco had a problem with their Powerheads...and they addressed it forthwith and the Taco Zone valves available today work well and last long. Why won't Honeywell do the same.

The problem is not a lack of quality desire on my part, or the part of most of the installers in this area. The problem is a downgrading of the quality available, at any cost, from the manufactures. Is it simply coincidence that these manufacture's have sent their manufacturing capability oversees or over the border...tough to convince me. My ability to address this problem is limited. I cannot, in most cases, simply choose another brand...as was noted in another thread, nearly all of the various brand names are using the same heat exchanger. Most of the eletronic controls appear, to me, to be manufactured by the same primary manufacture and simply painted a different color or labeled differently. Most of the motorized valves, dampers, controllers all appear to have the same motor's in them.

This is getting too long, but, understand that we, in this industry, are exremely frustrated by being forced to install crap that we know will fail in a matter of months. This crap is manufactured by big name companies that used to set the standard for excellence and reliability in this, and related, industries. Those companies refuse to address the situation because they know that we do not have a viable choice. Their fall from the high standards was coincident with NAFTA and the other agreements that well meaning politicians put together forcing the globalization of our American economy. I do understand the market forces that drive these business decisions...I participate in them daily...I understand that this issue is way too big to be simply fixed by deciding to by another brand. I understand that very little will change as a result of this thread, whether the manufactures read it or not.

Gotta go, four no heat calls today...everyone of them is a Honeywell V8043 that I have replaced in recent years.

Sigh!

PS. For the record, I don't see that a single, integrated, modular, electronic control that does everything is a plus. When that onboard transformer fails it takes a five hundred dollar part to replace it. When a simple, off board Taco 40va transformer fails it takes about thirty bucks to replace it. The upside to the integrated control is that nobody has to understand or troubleshoot the system...you simply replace the control...that's working good for the WMC Ultra.

Unknown

we all know that

We all know that the red color manufactor three piece oil pump are a major crapola. Their china made pump couplers are another story. Same for their flo-control unit. Stem too short to put wrench on packing nut so you can ( must do) grease the packing,otherwise, they will leak and make a mess of everything below.. I will raise hell again at the Ahe show where they don't care but brag their products are the best.

mtfallsmikey

I hate to tell y'all

But this has been going on since the early 80's...that recession signaled the end of the traditional distribution chain, wholesaler-to-DIY sales, product cheapening. Did a little piping with black steel recently..was appalled by the number of leaks, funky threads...no sandholes in fittings,thank goodness! The newer,big "H" oil primary controls do not like voltage sags/spikes, R8184/RA817 were very durable....Old reliable, the venerable T87F is history...I still have a funtioning Chronotherm from the late 50's. The early-mid 70's 1st gen. flame retention burners were a curse.

[Deleted User]

Darrell and Mikey

Darrell said:

"...It is easy to say,"insist on higher quality", but the reality is that we have to use what is available in the industry...Some years ago Taco had a problem with their Powerheads...and they addressed it forthwith and the Taco Zone valves available today work well and last long. Why won't Honeywell do the same...we, in this industry, are exremely frustrated by being forced to install crap that we know will fail in a matter of months..."

It seems to me that this is exactly the kind of name naming needed. Taco zone valves good, Honeywell bad. Use Taco whenever possible!

Mikey said:

"...Did a little piping with black steel recently..was appalled by the number of leaks, funky threads..."

Can one specify made-in-USA black pipe? Undoubtedly at higher cost, but has its quality deteriorated to Chinese levels? If the US product's quality is superior, let your customers know; perhaps they'd be willing to pay the price. I certainly would be *anxious* to incur the higher up-front cost in exchange for lack of failures.

Charlie from wmass

I have been an apprentice since I was able to use the toilet on my own and for the first time last year I had a noise complaint on a Taco 007 circulator brand new out of the box. I of course thought it was air or a bad flow check. but no it was the circ. there was a sand hole in the casting and it was making noise. The pump was replaced and taco stood behind their product but I was simply surprised. We have had leaking gas valves on new boilers. tank in tank stainless steel indirects leaking between the boiler water and domestic water. All products were backed by their manufacturers but it is still an issue for us as a small shop. THen I think why are we a small shop? Because it is hard to watch over a herd of employees and maintain the level of quality we desire. I think considering the pool of employees availible for the quanity of production these companies do they are doing ok. I also feel recycled metals are part of the issue in quality control. Have you ever tried to solder an old piece of copper? It can be done but you better do it by the numbers. Just a theory of mine.

Jim Patterson / Orchard Valley Heating and Cooling

If they offered to pay our labor bills, they would make a better

I have been ranting and raving on theis topic for years. Its good to see I am not alone ( as manufacturers often tell me). I have a US made mod/con line I am dropping after 7 years as a dealer. The component failure rate is beyond definition, lets try 35% on the blowers, 20% on the pumps, 12% on the Hwell processor , amongst many other technical and engineering issues along the way. Over 70% of my winter no heat calls are repairs on 50 boilers within 6 years old. How does that happen?? I give the company credit as they have covered my expenses, the aggrevation level has recently pressed me past the point of accepting the failures ( clients are not happy with the boilers either).

mtfallsmikey

My experience

That I mentioned in my previous post was with off-the-shelf black fittings/nipples. It's been a while since i did any serious thread cutting, but I'm sure there are issues with that too. I wonder what reaction I would get at the counter if I said " I need all USA-made pipe/fittings"....Hmmmmm.

Perry_5

USA Made Pipe and Fittings are still available

I did a little web searching and quickly found (as I suspected) that US made pipe and fittings are still around.

So, why don't people tell their suppliers that they will no longer tolerate the cheap junk and will buy the good stuff.

What's the tradeoff - a few dollars more on a job versus lost labor and frustration.

I also wandered by the pipe fitting rack in the maintenance shop at work.... All US made fittings in it. Given that all pipe has to have material certs supplied with it; and we innately mistrust Chinese material certs - I'll bet all the pipe in the warehouse is US made as well.

Now if your local supplier is not willing to stock and supply this for you.... Then, I suggest you learn the art of independent ordering. In general most of your piping and fitting needs are predictable (x number feet of Y size per year, N number of fittings, etc). With a little planning you can order and get this stuff probably cheaper than your supplier would sell it to you (or perhaps they will special order for you).

Perry

Perry_5

Is it true... and if so why...

I do understand your situation and frustration.

I'd like to revisit the base claims of the problem: That there are no longer high quality components/parts available.

Is that actually true? Hmmmm... I'm not so sure of that - but then again I see a much larger line of available products for most applications. Yes, among the common home heating supply companies you have a point. But, much of the same kinds and sizes of equipment and components are also available from other suppliers in the industrial market, where I doubt you have that kind of reliability problems. Of course, those parts and components cost more.

So why is that the case?

There are 3 general classes of purchasers:

1) Will always buy lowest initial cost.

2) Willing to spend more if someone can explain the very real advantages (and the advantages do need to be real).

3) Will buy top of the line or name brand with little regard to cost.

I actually believe that the majority of people in the US are in the 2nd catagory; but, few sales people are willing to invest the time into educating their potential customers on the advantages in regards to a more expensive option. This includes the sales person learning how to present this information to the people - which few people in sales are willing to do. Combined this with the fact that many people have been presented with "advantages" that did not work out (mislead to outright scam) ==> and you get a situation where most people now default to the lowest cost option. This is really reinforced by the number of sales people who will only present the lowest cost option (which is what I got from 3 heating contractors for my house as the initial quote).

The Manufactures for home consumer goods and applications have gotten the message as well. That in general - most of their sales are to people who only care about low cost and not quality.

If over the years the contractors had been unwilling to always go low cost lessor quality - then the Mfrs would not now be offering the items you are having problems with.

Fortunately, a few Mfrs have learned that quality still pays, and some Mfrs still respond realizing that long term survivability depends on having products reliable enough for people to continue using them.

Below is a report of one person discontinuing a certain brand of mod/con boiler. I've heard similar stories from others for the same reasons. Does anyone want to bet on that company existing in 5 or 10 years. High warranty claims and decreasing market share.... History tells what is coming unless they really change their ways - and have deep pockets.

As contractors - you are in the position to educate the home consumers and be only willing to buy higher quality stuff (from pipes to solenoid valves). If even only 10% of the home heating contractors start doing that it will dramatically change what kind of product is available.

Perhaps - someone needs to do some research and identify some of the companies that serve the industrial markets and make components that do the same thing. Of course, I'm not sure if your local heating supply wholesaler will be willing to directly stock those items.

Have a nice day,

Perry

Erich_3

Taco Expansion Tanks

Darrell, not sure if you know but Taco makes expansion tanks. Taco is one company that is proud of their quality and it shows.

Derheatmeister

Perry..Sorry that this research that you started a couple years ago did not work out for you!

A couple years ago i was also thinking about starting something like this,I quickly realized that this "Professional Only" site will require a lot of screening maintaining updating,Judging,testing,data logging,resourcing and i do not have the time or patience to do this and as i was thought if you do not do it the proper way, do not do it at all!

Just think about the Benefit that can come out of pure facts on how all of this equipment is performing and aging!

Maybe even start a "Best boiler awards" or a "Best Circulator awards".

Maybe as some of the manufactures are incooperating Data logging and transmission of facts and accepted norms or guide lines are set in the industry that information will be somewhat accurate.(Kind of like the Honda Cogens)

In my opion, and i think that i am in title to this since i have installed and Maintained High efficient German and regualar Boilers when the names like Viessmann/Buderus/Broetche/Danfoss/Mannesmann/Weisshaupt/Stieble Eltron/Wilo were and still are very Foreign to Most!
I have been in this trade since i was 16

I am not metallurgist and do not want to start a peeing contest.

In plain English: Yes i think that some Manufactures shall be "Bashed" because they shall be ashamed of even wasting the Embodied energy that it required to produce and maintain some of the Ill designed not so "Green" products that are in the Marketplace today!

In the past (and some of the people that visit the wall quite frequently will tell you that it is so) i would "Bash" some of the manufactures,even saying things like: they would be better of in the Boat anchor business. but all that i accomplished by doing this was that i got my "Panties in a bunch kin" and had some of the Manufactures reps wanting to take me out for "lunch" which i then declined because "they" were not going to "change it" and anyway and "they" know why i do not like the product so it is a waste of they're and my time!

I have found that stating my concerns with a malfunctioning product is the first step

Giving the Manufacture the Chance to "fix it"

Making suggestion to the manufacturer is the next step..

Not purchasing or subjecting myself or my customers is the next step..

And if asked by other Installers endorsing the product according to all the Above mentioned the next

Starting a web page "Why i hate ......com" has not been any of my plans, I fact i had a pretty lengthy conversation with a dissatisfied consumer about the unreliability of his Installer not the Boiler..



As per the not being outspoken or not "talking" about things:
You do not have to worry about me on this subject!

My fiends;Family;Employee's,Wallies, Customers and none Customers know that i am very opinionated about which is the proper way to do Things! I have no problem with that!
But as you maybe you can tell from my post i think that there is a time and a place for everything !

Although this industy has been around in the US for a while,it fails to be Guided or regulated like in Europe!

Do you remember the first "Go green go solar" during the 1970/ 1980ties?

This industry is still growing and as a very wise man once said:WE ARE EATING OUR YOUNG. i think his name was Dan??

"WE" need all of the positive "Publicity" we can get and "Hanging the dirty laundry out in "Public" in my opinion is not a very Positive thing especially when most of the "Public" and even some of the people that visit this site do not Understand the first thing about heat or the design Creativeness that go into a "proper" designed and Maintained Heating system/ plant.

Keep up the good work, I like some of your post.
I am always open to other educated opinions and wishing you well aswell. Richard from Heatmeister ;,)

Maine/Baltimore Doug_7

Chinese certs...

>>>Given that all pipe has to have material certs supplied with it; and we innately mistrust Chinese material certs<<<

The Chinese certs on pipe and fittings are probably as real as the tests and certs on their food and food additives. We saw what happens when Americaan companies using Chinese food products without further testing.

Maine/Baltimore Doug_7

Chinese certs...

>>>Given that all pipe has to have material certs supplied with it; and we innately mistrust Chinese material certs<<<

The Chinese certs on pipe and fittings are probably as real as the tests and certs on their food and food additives. We saw what happens when Americaan companies use Chinese food products without further testing. And watch out for the local peanut butter, one of my favorite foods.

Steamhead (in transit)

\"You're the Only One Who Complains About That...\"

When I hear that, I know I'm being lied to.

And when a certain country cheats at the Olympics when it really doesn't matter, what makes you think the "ASTM" sticker and suchlike means anything anymore?

Welcome to Chinamerica.

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ttekushan_3

I should charge

H for having to refine their new vaporstats so some meaningful performance can be had. I sit there like an idiot with tiny fine files and silicone grease to smooth surfaces enough to that the differential scale sort of means something. I get OK performance when done, but this is ridiculous.

Large scale deterioration of quality indicates to me that a level of collusion is occurring in the industry. I suppose a common link found among manufactures of decreasing quality stuff is a commitment to outsourcing their work to the same china consortiums that provide the work for all the other manufacturers of decreasing quality stuff.

Unknown

Electrolytic capacitor life

While proper circuit engineering precludes the use of aluminum electrolytics in most long life designs, there is one application where their use is unavoidable. Modern electronics universally use electrolytics as DC power supply filter capacitors, especially where operated from 60 Hz AC power. The reason is that no other capacitor design can provide the large capacitances required (hundreds or thousands of Microfarads) in a reasonably sized physical package.

While plastic film or metallized dielectric capacitors have extremely long lives, there large physical size limits their practical use in typical control electronics to capacitances in the order of tens of uF.

Electrolytic capacitor life is extremely temperature dependent. A cap rated at a 1000 hour life at 100C will typically still meet specs for 100000 hours at 20C. Given proper design and thermal management, products using high quality aluminum electrolytics can be safely assumed to have a design life of 10 to 15 years.

Here are links to some info regarding electrolytic life:

http://www.aavidthermalloy.com/technical/papers/capacitor.shtml

http://www.hitachiaic.com/docs/products/technicalreport.pdf


http://www.elna-america.com/tech_al_reliability.php

http://www.wa4bpj.com/Ham_Radio/Ham_Radio_Tech_Info/capacitor.htm

Darrell_7

I did know that, but the Taco Rep won't sell to me directly so I have to go through the favored wholesaler, who won't carry them. I'd have to order them through the wholesaler...good luck with that. There are only three supply houses in my area...meaning where I can drive to them. The same reps serve all three of them...and seems to be choosing favorites among them. One supply house has sold a particular brand of boiler for twenty years and refuses to carry a full line of parts for it...some bean counter decided that the service side doesn't pay well enough or some such. One of the other supply houses wanted to carry the line of parts and was blocked by the rep in favor of the supply house that won't. So what's a guy to do? I can't order a pallet of expansion tanks, or zone valves, or whatever. I am forced to order parts for the line of boilers over the phone from a supply house distant from me and have them shipped or flown in. I s'pose that I can order Taco Expansion Tanks from a distant supplier as well, but that gets really cumbersome and...sorry to say it so bluntly...really expensive.

The whole thing gives me a headache!