Ice buildup

Michael G

I have been living in my home for 2 1/2 years and have hydronic heating. Last night, the zone farthest from the boiler stopped producing heat. The plumber who came attributed it to a frozen pipe (probably due to some poor/nonexistent insulation in the walls) and after several hours of using a pipe thawing machine, managed to clear the ice buildup and restore the heat!

Many of the pipes on this zone are hidden in walls and are inaccessible however, they are on outside walls. I had been keeping the thermostat at 62 degrees when I was not at home, up until last month when I decided to drop the temperature to 60 degrees. Additionally, the temperature plunged to about 5 degrees F here in the New York City area.

1) Is there a way I can prevent this ice plug/block from happening again?

2) What is the lowest temperature I can keep the thermostat at when I am out of the house so that I don't have to worry about having the same problem again, but can save money by reducing the thermostat?

3) Should I consider buying a pipe thawing machine for a possible future problem like this and if so, are there reasonably priced used ones available?

Michael G

Ted Robinson

Frozen HW heating pipes

Your frozen pipe problem comes from their positioning too close to an outside air path and your thermostat setback that allowed the water to stagnate long enough to freeze. A plumbing alternative is to have constantly circulating water with a variable mixing valve or changing boiler water temperature that modulates the actual radiator water temperature.

Michael G

Ice buildup

Ted,

Thanks for the prompt response!

Is a variable mixing valve common and inexpensive to install? Would most plumbers know what that is if I mentioned this to them?

Also, I am not clear on what you mean about "changing boiler water temperature that modulates the actual radiator water temperature"? Can you please clarify that a bit for a lay person like me?

thanks!

oil-2-4-6-gas

boiler anti freeze---or run on outdoor reset with constant circulation----insulate im in Westchester county NY

Michael G

ice buildup followup

Wow! Wow there is boiler antifreeze? What brand? and do you just pour it in?

What does "outdoor reset with constant circulation" mean?

I'd love to insulate, but I am afraid the insulation issue may be too difficult to achieve given the walls that the pipes run in.

I am in Westchester County as well. Hastings on Hudson. Which village/town are you in and are you a licensed plumber? Shall we talk/email directly?

GW

hello

no, you can not pour it in like a car, it has to be pumped in. It takes 3 hands, or two hands if you're good at it. I'm not sure the average home owner would want to do this.

The outdoor reset control is pretty cool. Go to tekmar on the web and see their controls; they're the best. The 256 is their most basic control. We install a lot of the Tn4 systems.

If it's really cold, do NOT turn your heat down. I bet the plumber grabbed twice as much as what you're 'saving' by turning the stat down.

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Michael G

To Gary....followup

So, if you were me....

1) Would you go the boiler antifreeze route or would you use the Tekmar products? What exactly does it do? And for the lay person, what is the difference between the 256 and the Tn4?

2) What should I keep the thermostat at if it's really cold? 62 or so?

Yes, I am scared to get his bill!

GW

Good Morning

Most heating guys don't really like the anti-freeze because it creates issues... it leaks out where water doesn't and creates a mess.

In my opinion adding the outdoor rest is better, because you'll save some money in fuel too. The Tn4 is just a fancier system.... you do not need it. We use it for operating modulating boilers, which you don't have.

The bottom line is if it's really cold and the zone in not moving water, and your house isn't tight/well insulated in that particular area, you're gonna freeze. There is no magic answer as to how low you can go on the stat setting; the variables are what the temp is indoors, outdoors, wind, and how long the zone is standing still (lets say you turn the stat down, that means the zone will sit idle for a while).

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John R. Hall

Michael

Our problem wasn't frozen pipes, it was getting hot water from the hot water heater to our bathroom, which are 85 feet apart. We had our HVAC guy install a circulating pump on the heater and it keeps a constant flow of hot water in the system. I bet the same would work for keeping pipes from feezing. I think it was around $600-700 but worth it.

Michael G

To Gary

My heating guy has agreed that anti freeze is a good way to go as long as I have a back flow valve (they have to check my system) and the nipples are ok (which he said he thinks they are since it's a Dunkirk).

He didn't think that the outdoor reset was going to work very well since I have baseboard heating and that would restrict my temperature and not keep my home warm enough. Thoughts?

Also, is there a way to get "constant circulation" of the warm weather?

Edward A. (Ed) Carey_3

Outdoor reset & home not warm enough??????

Gary,

Without going into great detail, by your response it appears that you heating contractor does not understand the concept of outdoor reset.

Your home would be more comfortable with outdoor reset, not colder.

Ed Carey

Michael G

Response to Ed C.

Ed,

In very basic terms, since I am a lay person/consumer, could you kindly advise me how the outdoor reset would work to help me stay warm while also preventing the possibility of ice buildup?

Once you clarify for me, I can find a heating contractor that can deal with this appropriately.

Thanks,
Michael G.

Mike C._4

Frozen pipes

As stated eleswhere, your pipes are not in the heating envelope combined with low temps and setback. Maybe for a cheap solution you could consider turning the zone on periodically. I've never used this but it sounds like it would work: http://www.bearmountaindesign.com/

Mike

Unknown

I'm a single pipe steam man myself. Thought I'd mention that my neighbor put an outdoor reset on his HW system and it has saved him a lot on fuel use and he's very happy with it. I don't know that much about them but from what I do know, if I had a HW`system I'd definitely look into them.

Also here's the website for Rhomar

http://www.rhomarwater.com/products/residential-hydronic-radiant/

They make antifreeze for hotwater systems and have info on it.
I use their steam system products. They're nice people to work with.

Edward A. (Ed) Carey_3

outdoor reset and other options.

Mike,

See this site; it will explain a lot for you.

http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/savings.html

First, I am of the understanding that your system or circulation did not shut down and freeze. If I understand correctly, you have a pipe that is exposed to abnormally cold temperatures, and you turned the heat lower than usual, which allowed the standing water in the pipe to freeze. Am I correct in my assumptions?

If the above it correct, then in your case, outdoor reset may help however it is not a cure all.

Outdoor reset can be programmed to keep lower temperature water flowing through the heat emitters over a longer period of time to accomplish the same task that the very hot water does in a shorter period of time.

That longer duration of water flow at a lower temperature will still give you the same BTUs into the space. It will not give you a large quantity of BTUs in a short burst of time, which will satisfy the thermostat quickly, and then keep the water flow off longer.

The outdoor reset will allow less BTUs per min to be sent into the space, by sending warmer water (not extremely hot water) through the pipes and heat emitters for a longer run time.

That water temperature constantly changes and is based on the heating needs of the space and also based on the outside temperature demands on the system.

The longer duration of water flow at the lower temperature will help to protect the pipe, give you more even heat, and ultimately save you some energy.

However you must remember that if the system with an outdoor reset control (or with constant circulation) goes down (electrical failure, circulator pump failure, loop goes air bound, etc), and the water stops flowing, the pipe can still freeze.

Also, even an outdoor reset control may stop the water flow for a limited period of time in very cold weather. So if the pipe is grossly exposed to the outside air, it may still freeze.

The only way to be sure to completely protect the pipe will be to properly and totally insulate it from sub-freezing outside air temperatures, or install antifreeze in the system so it simply can not freeze when there is no water flow, regardless of the reason.

Hope this helps

Ed Carey

Michael G

Response to Ed C

Ed,
Yes, you have it correct -- the pipes froze in an enclosed portion of our walls where we couldn't find it. As such we needed to melt it using an electric pipe melter.

I like the idea of the outdoor reset control coupled with the antifreeze. Unfortunately, it is just not practical to try to determine where the pipe was uninsulated, since they are embedded deep into the walls.

If the analogy for the outdoor reset control works exactly like the car analogy, then I imagine that we may lose something on the "acceleration" but it will eventually heat up the room...just perhaps not as quickly as if we didn't have the reset control?

Are the basic reset controls expensive to buy and install?

Thanks again,
Michael

Ken Field

Outdoor reset

is a great way to go but keep in mind that in a power outage, outdoor reset won't help you unless you have a backup generator and use it. Glycol will protect you in that case and if you use a 30% mixture and not 70-80% you should not have any adverse problems.

GW

hello Ed

I'm lost, what did I type that confused you?

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GW

I think I understand

Ed, you mean when I said, "you're gonna freeze"? Wow, you must think I'm a real knuckle head. If you read the entire post you would see that the main subject is freezing the base board loop. Are you with me on that?

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GW

yes

baseboard needs a certain amount of heat just to get the convection process going. Ideally you would want "indoor feed back". This gets very technical to explain.

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Michael G

Additional followup

I am being told by my heating contractor 2 things:

1) The antifreeze is quite expensive, on the order of about $175 for 5 gallons and I might need as much as 25 gallons! Does that sound accurate?

2) He feels that the outdoor reset has the possibility of causing condensation and ultimately rust unless I were to have a condensing boiler, which I don't have. We have a Dunkirk boiler. Does anyone have any comments or feedback on this?

Edward A. (Ed) Carey_3

Post in response to Gary

To Gary,

You posted
“Ed, you mean when I said, "you're gonna freeze"? Wow, you must think I'm a real knuckle head. If you read the entire post you would see that the main subject is freezing the base board loop. Are you with me on that?”


I did not have a clue what you meant, until I read my own post again.

I am sorry. Your name was a misprint on my post. My bad.

That was meant as a question for Mike, and had no reference to your post.

Sorry for the confusion.

Ed Carey

GW

cool

no probs, take care, gary

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GW

uhhh

call someone else?

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Michael G

To Gary

Do you think it would be very different pricing between installing outdoor reset and antifreeze? I also realize that there could be cost savings with the outdoor reset.

Michael G

to Gary

What is indoor feed back?

GW

yes

antifreeze is less money.

You may have ongoing costs to maintain, and you stand to lose a tiny fraction of running costs (maybe not worth mentioning).

Outdoor reset: maybe more to install but makes your boiler smarter and saves money on fuel. Find someone who knows ahet they're talking about.

This is just a basic baseboard system with a basic boiler? 25 gallons? is the dude nuts?

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Michael G

antifreeze versus outdoor reset

Yes, it's a basic boiler and baseboard system with 140,000 btus input and 112,000 btus output.

How many gallons of antifreeze might it take do you think?
You think that there will be extra maintenance costs due to having to replace the antifreeze? anything else?

I will try to find a better contractor.

gman_5

Micheal

I just did my own . I got 3 gallons of antifreeze at a heating supply warehouse.

3 or 4 gallons should be more than enough. The labor to put in the antifreeze can't be that much as it's not very time consuming. Maybe 2 hours labor charge.

How often does it get to 5 degrees around here. I just felt I didn't need a 50-50 mix, even if I got a 75-25 mix it will help me.

Michael G

Gman...antifreeze

Would 50/50 be a more ideal mixture? Is that what is recommended?

How do I know how many gallons I need?

Are you in the New York City suburban area as well?

gman_5

Try reading this....

http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/235.pdf


I own a rental hi ranch. The woman on the upper floor turns down the heat when she goes out to save money. The home is fine when the temps go down into the teens.

This was the first time the up stairs zone froze but it was single digits for 2 days.

They do sell test strips to see what concentration of antifreeze you can go down to. I just figured 3 gallons would help me when it got down to single digits.

I am on Long Island and maybe get 5 days of single temperature days per year.

Michael G

antifreeze

That pdf is excellent! Thanks for forwarding that to me!

It sounds like I should try to avoid antifreeze if possible due to the maintenance that is required and the fact that it is more difficult to maintain and also harder to heat.

http://www.bearmountaindesign.com/ This looks like a really good idea to keep water circulating....Is there another way to keep water circulating on a regular basis?

gman_5

The Thermguard thing might be good for you but for my application with it being a rental unit I rather go the antifreeze route. I don't want to worry about setting the thing and bothering tenants to adjust it or if the thing isn't working right.

I don't know of any other way to have constant circulation on a regular basis.

rich pickering

Insulate

I just installed a new boiler for a hydronic system with the outdoor controls. It basically keeps the boiler water at a lower temperature say 140 degrees instead of 170 degrees depending on the temperature outside. This saves you energy on fuel as you are not heating the water as high.
As far as freezing pipes - I am having the same problem only with my bathroom pipes. They are freezing somewhere in the walls and I cannot find it. They froze these past 2 weekends and I had to use an electric pipe heater to thaw. My idea is to get one of those infrared guys to come buy and take a reading to see where the walls are coldest and blow some insulation in where ever there are cold spots. They can also read the temp of the pipes in the walls with those infrared cameras. Best way to avoid this problem is to insulate and seal your house. I am trying to find someone to come take some readings - any one have any recommendations or comments on my idea?
thanks,
marc

Michael G

Response to Marc re:frozen pipes and infrared

Marc,
Glad to hear that the outdoor reset works well. I need to find a heating contractor in my area in southern Westchester County, NY that understands the merits of that device and is willing to install it. How much should a basic unit cost including installation? I wonder what the payback time is for that initial cost?

I also like the infrared idea. Last year I had an energy audit and had an infrared evaluation. I need to circle back with that guy to see if he can conclude where the lack on insulation might be. Great idea! We should keep the other one posted on what we discover.

Michael

rich pickering

RE: Contractor

My girlfriend's uncle is a licensed plumber in westchester and installed it for me. I think you will need a new relay switch board that is compatible for using the outdoor sensor. I'll ask him if he would be interested in looking at your setup and pass along his information. He installed my new viessmann boiler 4-zone system and it's working great. But I have contacted some energy audit guys to se if they will just do the pipe reading - I already know where I am losing heat and I dont want to pay $500 for that. Hopefully someone gets back to me and i'll let you know. Let me know if you come across anything on your side.
Thanks Michael.
-marc

martin

Freezing Pipes

There might be a simple cure for this. Alot of times when we now of a specific location that something freezes but hard to insulate we use spray foam we usually get a piece af vinyl tube to replace the straw that comes with th can. Ussually you can get by drilling a 1/4 hole and shoot foam in behind the pipe. Alot of times we use a piece of brazing rod to keep the vinyl stiff for control.