Radiator Project Pictures

Steamhead (in transit)

you need a whole gang of Wetheads!

"Steamhead"

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=367&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Radiator Ranger

Radiator Project Pictures

Hi All,

I've been working on a radiator project for almost a year. This site and community is a tremendous resource - thank you for your participation and contributions!

I live in the woods 10 miles from the closest SMALL town. We have a geothermal heating system (water) that was installed in the early 1980's. We use two wells for heat with simple down hole heat exchangers (2" black iron pipe in 20' lengths connected by couplers with a U at the bottom - one well is ~420' and the other is ~750' deep). We send domestic water through our geo system. We've got a few hydronic radiant floors but most of our 130+ buildings have cast iron radiators for heating. I like the efficiency of in floor heat but they require pumps etc. and we only generate 40 kw which we use to power our entire facility. I've taken an interest in this system and now it's one of my special projects.

When I started, I was really intimidated by radiators but I was also cold and that was a great motivator. I've read all of Dan's books and Modern Hydronic Heating by Siggy (as you call him). I've read most of IBR and and I frequently re-read sections of all texts as my knowledge develops. There is so much to learn! This is fun, challenging, rewarding, still intimidating and it has changed so much for me. This year, we replaced 40 radiators - whew.

I want to share some of my pictures from this project and invite feedback of any sort.

Img. 2439 burst just after the snow flew. 1871 and 2316 reflect my 'workshop' space. 1863 is a cutaway view of an interior - I was curious about exterior rust bubbles and this is what I found - HOLY MOLY!! - how does the heat/ water get through and what exactly causes this? Air of course but what else? 2530 is in our dining room - we serve 3 meals a day to guests. The paint job was one of those extended inspired moments - I had 7 units total and all I could think was RAINBOW - I've taken some 'heat' for this install but they make me smile every time - Radiating Rainbows to all of you and yours!

Gwen Healy

gerry gill

that scrolled radiator

in your work shop is gorgeous..

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Eatherton

1863...

Gwen, you said you were running potable water through the system? That WILL cause the inside of a cast iron radiator to do that, and that is NOT normal, wanted or acceptable.

THe radiators were made to see as little oxygen as possible.

Nice work in any case.

ME

heatboy_16

Disaster on it's way.

If I read your post correctly, this is an "open" system. That radiator in piture #1863 is an indicator of the future demise. Probably sooner than later.

Radiator Ranger

Air and Water - 'Closed Loop'

Hi -

Not only is air the heat thief in terms of air infiltration it's killing our radiators too.

What kind of water would you use if not domestic? The spring/ geo water is full of minerals which I believe would corrode the pipes even more. Our domestic is surface water (from the river that runs through the property) which has been filtered then chlorinated (it's our drinking water and we've got a distribution system for it). I've read about magnets on pipes to remove some sediment. Are there other ways to improve our water quality? Since our system is closed but leaky, I'm averse to using anything that might pollute the groundwater.

This is a mostly 'closed loop' system but we've got leaks.... The distribution piping is 2" and smaller copper and in some places it was actually soldered not brazed. After 25 years of being in the ground, some of those solder joints have failed. We don't have an automatic air separator at either wellhead which would help a lot but we do have air separators in other parts of the system.

We'll get to installing air separators but not this season - anyone know where to source an air separator for a wellhead?

We're at the point of developing install specs and best practices - there are so many aspects that could use improving. I focused on the radiators because it's where the obvious hurt is (people we're getting cold and I suspected it didn't need to be that way - changed my radiators which got me warm, proved my point and helped me develop confidence).

Our dialectric unions were rotting away and this year (mid-season), we started going from the radiator to black pipe, to PEX, to the distribution piping as a way of interrupting the cycle. Luckily radiators are robust and over time we can change a lot so the radiators don't rot out - I think they can serve for another 100+ years. I know it's not normal because NONE of the radiators I've purchased (mostly from steam systems) have sediment build up like the units we're removing from this system.

I've done load calcs. on almost every building. Am planning on changing some of the worst distribution piping (we've got one place where our piping gets submerged in cold water when the water table rises). I have a conservation initiative started which will see us insulating more effectively (this place was built in the 30's and wasn't intended for year round use). I've learned a lot and am using what I've learned to educate the people here - developing a budget for the necessary system maintenance is part of my charter.

Thanks for your feedback thus far!

Here is another picture - this is in the River Yurt and replaces a series of mismatched units (one of which exploded and flooded the room ).

Gwen Healy

Mark Eatherton

You've got some serious problems there...

Based on the cut away view, I suspect a previous operator came up with the hair brained idea of a "combination" open/closed loop system. The damage has already been done. Especially if you have exploding radiators. You might want to consider abandonment and complete replacement.

Small "leaks" don't do that kind of damage.

Sorry for the gloomy news..

ME

tim smith

Gwen, if I read this right, you are getting direct geothermal

heat from wells? What kind of output temps in winter to you get off well. If this is correct, maybe a largish horizontal tank for sediment settling with a tube bundle heat exchanger in it so you turn the actual heating system into a closed one. Have a bottom blow off on tank to clear sediment regularly out of tank. A manhole clean out access to clean once a year. This might make alot more sense. Tim

Radiator Ranger

Yeah, Geothermal

One of the wells has something like the tank you mentioned - we call it Well #1 and it's pictured in 2549.jpg. This is the well that is ~420' and we only heat about 5 buildings with it (not including the sauna). We replaced the down hole heat exchanger and the 'near boiler piping' in the past 3 years but we did not replace the tank.

Our other well is Well #4 - the well head is pictured in 2556.jpg - from there, the pipes go underground for about 200' then into building we call The Geohouse - 2545 shows that piping etc. The red and blue pipes indicate which side of the river the pipes service - red serves the guest side and blue serves the community side. The makeup water is introduced on the right of the geohouse picture which is just after the pipes enter the building. Those 2 pumps represent our largest use of power on land. I'd like to think that with incrementally better geo design combined with conservation measures that improve building performance we'll eventually be able to eliminate the need for one of the 2 pumps.

It's a closed loop system and the down hole heat exchanger is how we get the heat out - I'm not sure where a tube bundle HE would go but I'm convinced we need: 1) Some sort of sediment collector/ filter 2) automatic air bleeders at each well head (maybe giant Spirovents?) 3) A lot of 'minor' system improvements overall.

This summer I focused on replacing radiators for several reasons including - if the system is clogged by gunked up radiators then it'll be nearly impossible to balance it or do much flow diagnostics until that's cleared up. Also, we had a lot of small and clogged radiators in series in places - this meant we had a lot of loops with many, many fittings equalling a lot of resistance. I'm basically a simpleton and this approach made sense to me - it also helped get heat into buildings that had heat calls in the recent past.

I'm going with one major assumption and that is that the system heated all of the structures well in the past (we have added buildings over time but they are of higher quality and we are addressing deferred maintenance in other places which improves building performance overall). It's a gamble but it seems like a safe one.

One of the drivers for me was a decision by the owners to get some engineering done on the system. As someone who is involved in projects here, I tried to figure out what kinds of information an engineer would need to understand the basics of this system then went about learning that (doing load calcs, getting familiar with different parts of the system etc.). One premise I worked with is that 98% of the information we need to understand this system is right here (not in the head of some expert somewhere else). I'm no engineer but when we get to doing system design and improvements in the future, I want to have taken care of the 'simple' aspects of good system maintenance so we can get to good design implementation sooner.

Learning about steam heat and looking at pictures of near boiler piping, reading about mod con boilers and gas vs, oil etc. is a little off topic for me but another gamble I'm making is that though the systems might be really different, the ways of water are very similar. I imagine most dead men never imagined radiator deterioration like we've got here because they knew enough to avoid it. Over time, I'll learn enough to avoid it too.

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

Radiator Ranger

Scrolled Rad.

Thanks, I'm fond of those ornate ones too. I've decided that for the most part, ornate radiators should be installed in our public spaces so more people can enjoy them.

I generally prime each radiator with flat black then I apply the cover coat (this saves the color paint which is a little more expensive) and it gets dark coat onto any surfaces that are missed with the final paint coat allowing just the tiniest bit more heat to be emitted. I used copper hammerite spray paint.

Gwen

Radiator Ranger

Send and Return Temps

Oops, I forgot to say our temperatures are fairly stable year round (only 5-7 degree change if that). Well #1 is 195 with about a 165 return. Well #4 has a start temp of ~190 with returns from the community at ~150 and returns from the guest side of ~170.

Pretty cool huh?

Gwen Healy

Steamhead (in transit)

Looks like that one radiator

might have burst from freezing. The snow in the room that didn't melt is a clue.

Gwen, where are you located? I'm sure there is someone who can help you de-knucklehead that system......

"Steamhead"

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Radiator Ranger

You're probably right

we'd be better off just beginning again; this system has suffered so many insults. We could eliminate the hair brained installations or upgrades well intentioned people (like me) have introduced etc. It's definitely a 'closed loop' system with leaks and other problems. We've got many thousands and thousands of feet of distribution piping in the ground and we'll only dig it up and replace it 'as needed'. This geo project competes with many other priorities here and we can't realistically change it all at once (we're talking about hundreds of radiators).

My role is to do whatever I can to be sure we make good decision when and where we can. I'm hoping people like you (and others) can follow the show here, share, learn and enjoy the zaniness of an organization that decided to heat this depression era facility for year round use with technology that was already close to a hundred years old (radiators) to begin with.

I've come to appreciate your thoughtfulness in responding to folks here on The Wall Mark. When I read your post that we ought to consider abandonment, it made me laugh out loud partly because it helped me understand what I'm up against with this project. There are some specific loops (like the one in ground water when the water table rises) that WILL be abandoned (at least that's what I'm recommending). With that recommendation I'd also like to suggest something that will reliably heat those structures even during high water events. For this I will need to come up with a plan - this work will hopefully happen next summer. Between now and then I have to get comfortable making design recommendations - taking what I've learned over the year and actually applying it - risking the introduction of hair brained ideas on my part. I'm going to do my best to get it right. We're going with the progress not perfection approach on this one.

I think the system is kind of magic in it's simplicity and ability to function despite the insults it's received over the years.

Thanks for your comments thus far!

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

tim smith

Depending on pressure, I might contact Uphonor or Rehau about

water quality and using there preinsulated Hepex pipe for mains to all the buildings. This would cure your problems with all the main leaks and be pretty easy to do. Also a tank and heat x as I said before maybe for the open side of loop.

Mark Eatherton

We're here to help Gwen...

And we ALL make hair brained mistakes :-)

If we can keep other people from making those same mistakes, based on our hair brained experiences, then we all win.

I second the recommendation to go with the pre-insulated PEX from Uponor. Just make certain you accomodate the pipe for its co-efficient's of expansion.

ME

Steamhead (in transit)

So where

is this Depression-era facility located?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

222063748

Breitenbush, OR

This is a place called Breitenbush Hot Springs - Detroit, Oregon.

We're about 1.25 hours east of Salem, OR and 1.5 hours west of Bend, OR. and about 5.5 hours from Seattle WA (that's where I'm from). The facility is almost entirely surrounded by forest service land.

It was homesteaded in 1904 by the Mansfields; it was realized the following year (someone must have looked closely at the map) that this was unlikely agricultural land but the homestead application stood. By the 1920's Hattie Mansfield had married Merle Bruckman (son of the inventor of the ice cream cone) and in 1927 the lodge was built. During the same era 43 guest cabins and other facilities were built, including an olympic sized swimming pool, a pool house and several other structures (several of which have burned down). As you can imagine, maintenance on such a facility was/ is enormous and over time the facilities deterioriated.

After about 12 years of no inhabitance, a private party purchased Breitenbush in the late 1970's and along with a crew of volunteers the facility was brought up to code and opened for business as a retreat and conference center. The private party spearheaded much of the work required to get the place functional (replaced wood roofs with steel, rebuilt foundations, rebuild the hydro electric system etc., etc.) sold the springs in the 1980's to what is now a worker owned cooperative for the cost he paid (in real dollars) - no big profit taken on this one.... In the last several years, the membership has invested something like 96% of the profit back into the facilities for capital improvement projects. This is quite a project.

We host different groups and personal retreats almost every week from yoga to painting to dancing to farming to meditation etc. This a unique business with a unique business model (like our heating system).

The heating wells were drilled and system installed in the late 70's / early 1980's replacing wood stoves as the primary heating source. In 1983, just after the system was installed, they lost nearly every radiator to freezing - (lost hydro power which shut down the pumps and CRACK!). I'm glad I wasn't here for that.

Anyone in the area?

Gwen Healy -

222063748

Here, here -

let's hear it for learning.

I looked at the Uphonor site and that Hepex pipe looks like an improvement for sure. Thanks for this suggestion! When you say accomodate the pipe for it's co-effecient's, how do you do that in a piping loop - leave slack at the send side or make it real tight or?

Gwen Healy

222063748

Frozen Unit

Yeah, it froze for sure. I think the TRV wasn't installed with a winter setting (so the unit cannot be shut off all the way) - knuckle head operator....

The interesting thing about this radiator is that it's not gunked up inside - it makes me wonder if the radiator was handled rough sometime in the past causing a mild fracture. The only other thing I can think of (besides the water expanding when frozen issue) is that maybe the leg fins aren't as strong.

Bottom line on this one is that if the valve wasn't turned off, we would not have lost this unit.

Gwen

Paul Cooke

Breitenbush

I live a couple of hours from Breitenbush and have been there many times. The geothermal heat source is an amazing natural gift. It's really too bad because although the wells were developed by a commercial outfit many years ago, unfortunately, the distribution system was never properly designed. It was cobbled together by volunteers and others that had good intentions but little knowledge about the proper way to use the resource.

Nearly every hydronic rule I know of has been violated as the system has been expanded over the past 20 years. It's amazing that any of the many cabins stay warm during the winter months. Luckily hydronic systems can be forgiving and somehow the system limps along.

It would take thousands of dollars to remake the distribution system so that things run smoothly there. There's never any money to fix the problems so they just keep compounding the errors with band-aids.

Paul Cooke

Code violations and safety issues

You mentioned that Breitenbush was brought up to code. When I was there 2 years ago I noticed many violations including possible cross-contamination problems because of lack of backflow protection.

I also saw piping carrying 190+ water laying on the ground with no protection and poorly crafted joints. I sure hope that none of the many visitors ever get injured while staying there.

Paul Cooke

Gang of Wetheads

Not a bad idea. Perhaps Breitenbush could supply a week of free food and lodging to some heating professionals in exchange for advice on retrofitting the entire system.

Mark Eatherton

Hi Paul!!

Whooda thunk someone I know has been there :-)

Maybe they should hire YOU as a consultant to help their volunteers do the right things...

I know all too well how working with donations and volunteers goes. I work at a community college...

Good to see your words.

ME

Mark Eatherton

Accomodating PEX expansion..

If you have long runs between buildings, you put a 360 degree loop half way between the two buildings, then lock the tubing rigidly (thrust blocks, riser clamps where the tube enters foundation walls, whatever it takes) at the buildings and send the expansion/contraction TO the loop. If you let it do what it wants to do, it changes over a period of time. The tubing will expand 1.1" per 100' length per 10 degrees F change in temperature. So, a 100 foot long length, going from 70 to 190 degrees F would grow 13.2" So, you can see how expansive (or contractive) this stuff really is.

Even if you use the loop method, you have to stake the loop quite well, and place guides to direct the expansion to the loop, or the loop will crawl side saddle across the ground, kind of like a side winder snake :-)

ME

Paul Cooke

Mark

Hi Mark

I did go up there as a non-paid consultant about 2 years ago. It's frustrating because although they have such an amazing wealth in the form of geothermal as well as hydroelectric power, there isn't any money to pay qualified people to get things working properly.

Like Steamhead said, perhaps they could offer a week of free lodging and meals in exchange for consultation to any Wetheads that make the trip up there. Dan could hold the next Wetstock there. It's a 2-1/2 hour drive from the Portland airport if the weather isn't crazy.

It's really a unique place. Plenty of hot water pools, cold pool and even a sauna that gets it's heat from the geothermal water that steams up from the ground below. Here's some pictures.

tim smith

You said it just before I was going to post it. How bout a 3 day

summer wetstock or so, bring the whole crew in and maybe get John White and Uphonor involved in helping with some decent equipment. Could be an enlightening retreat and we all could learn from it. I could bring a bunch of tools down from Seattle. Tim
Also, maybe we could make this place a "hot bed" for testing equipment, geo, pv, vfd pumps etc. Could be a place for classes to be held at times. I don't know their org. type but could be a great research center and they would benefit also.

Paul Cooke

Going there in the summer

It would be better to go there when the weather is cooler. Jumping into fresh snow or a pool of 40 degree water after soaking in a tub that's 108 degrees will take 10 years off your age.

That is, of course, unless it kills you.

tim smith

Maybe late spring so working conditions would be good.

Erik J. Hoffman

Knight boiler

Gwen,
did you ever get your knight boiler up and running.

I also thought most of your lines were filled with glycol, so if you don't maintain the glycol that could contribute to your problems. I talked to Randy about this several months ago, when I talked him through the knight boiler.

I thought you had an abundance of electricity?

Mark Eatherton

I see PEX, people....

and that could in fact be a part of the corrosion problem, especially at 190 degrees F. (O2 diffusion increases at higher temperatures)

It has also been my experience that ground water found near naturally occurring hot springs has a tendency to be fairly corrosive. Options would be A.) Hauling in water from a separate source once closed loop is "tightened up". or B.) Inducing chemicals to balance out the water, or possibly C.) try magnetic water conditioning.

I LOVE hot springs, and have in fact looked over the workings of numerous here in Colorado. What a resource.

I might consider an sojourn to the great N.W. in trade for food and shelter :-)

ME

tim smith

Could be enlightening and fun!

222063748

Expansion Loops

Oh yeah, expansion loops, we use them here. I guess I was thinking about shorter runs - I'm not always swift about drawing connections.

We are using pex with an oxygen barrier though I've been wondering if we shouldn't use pex al pex. The use of pex in the heating system is fairly new for us and our problems with air have been present for a LONG time.

Gwen

222063748

Right

Paul,

You made my point much more succinctly than did - thank you! I'm glad to know you've been here and had good experiences (aside from witnessing some of our systems problems).

We have been changing our heat exchangers this year and the worst issue re: geo water and domestic water has been addressed. We are continuing to address problems as we find and understand them. We want to be in compliance with applicable codes - and make changes regularly in order to do so.

If you've got ideas about changes we can make to the system for thousands of dollars which would either improve system performance or longevity I'd love to hear and engage them. We have tight budgets but not that tight and we're definitely moving away from compounding our problems with band-aids.

Everyone that was on the Systems Team (the group of people in charge of the geo system) when you were here is gone now. It's one of our problems with running these systems - people come, learn and go away - moving on with their lives (which is great) but the systems suffer from the transience. I'm not on the systems team but I've been here long enough to see this discontinuity and the results. It's part of the reason I'm now involved in the way that I am - this resource (and all of the people who access it) deserves good stewardship and service. I can't tell you how frustrating it can be here sometimes but I'm trying to apply my intelligence in ways that eliminate the possibility for bad decision making around projects and systems.

We drilled all of the wells on this section of the land ourselves, it was apparently a very slow process. We have reportedly had trouble getting other people to touch the wells because the water temp is so high (though it's considered low temp geothermal). There is adjacent land with heat wells and those WERE all drilled by an outside outfit.

Attached is a picture of Wellhead #4 with the glaring issue of temporary piping changed.

Where do you live?

Gwen

222063748

Visiting, Sharing, Consulting

We are willing to work with consultants offering both comp. stays or money when we can; it's better when we can work this into a budget before the fact.

I love the idea of having a Wetstock (or whatever) up here. I couldn't have imagined a better response!! This is a great place for sharing - we've got some PV panels that we'd like to tie into our system and we've got a 50 yr. conditional use permit submitted to the county - in that, we propose to install another hydropower source (Pelton wheel, wind, solar, methane energy etc. on the Northland (an adjacent parcel)) - we've also got another heating Well we'd like to bring online in the somewhat near future too.

Every season here is nice - in the summer the river is good for the hot cool contrast but there IS something great about winter here. Spring and fall also have their hight points - winter does bring snow and cold so it's the least best time for getting stuff done. Mid week is easier for us because weekends are our busiest time but were' flexible. Let's keep talking about this possibility either for a group or individuals.

Last year I drove the Seattle for one of Dan's presentations and it was great! I wished more people from here would have gone. Also, I've been wondering if Dan will make an appearance on the west coast this year - maybe this would interest him.

The Oregon Steam-up is July 25, 26 or August 1, 2 it's really neat event and relatively close by. Here is a link to their website: www.antiquepowerland.com/



Gwen

222063748

Sharing, Consulting and Expertise

We are willing to work with consultants offering both comp. stays or money when we can; it's better when we can work this into a budget before the fact.

I love the idea of having a Wetstock (or whatever) up here. I couldn't have imagined a better response!! This is a great place for sharing.

We've got some PV panels that we'd like to tie into our system and we've got a 50 yr. conditional use permit submitted to the county - in that, we propose to install another hydropower source (Pelton wheel, wind, solar, methane energy etc. on the Northland (an adjacent parcel)) - we've also got another heating Well we'd like to bring online in the somewhat near future too. When some of us talk we imagine this as a clean energy resource institute because the facility and resources are so incredible.

Every season here is nice - in the summer the river is good for the hot cool contrast but there IS something great about winter here. Spring and fall also have their hight points - winter does bring snow and cold so it's the least best time for getting stuff done. Mid week is easier for us because weekends are our busiest time but we're flexible. Let's keep talking about this possibility either for a group or individuals. For the more modest among us there is plenty do so besides soaking and there is always after dark...

Last year I drove the Seattle for one of Dan's presentations and it was great! I wished more people from here would have gone. Also, I've been wondering if Dan will make an appearance on the west coast this year - maybe this will interest him.

I've tried posting pictures a few time here this afternoon but our system seems really slow right now so I'll try again later.

The Oregon Steam-up is July 25, 26 or August 1, 2 it's really neat event and relatively close by. Here is a link to their website: www.antiquepowerland.com/

Thanks Y'all,
Gwen

222063748

A whole gang

of Wetheads - we sure do

222063748

Tim Smith

Hey, Seattle - have you heard of Second Use Building Materials?

They've got a 207,000 BTU Buderus boiler (setup for oil) for sale. I don't know what's involved in buying used boilers but I did notice you mention this brand on your website. They're asking $995.00. You can see it at: www.seconduse.com, selecting Inventory, then typing boiler in the Search field.

Gwen - Radiator Ranger

222063748

Knight Boiler

Hi Erik,

We did finally get that running - that space is warm for the first winter ever. From what I've read (on the Wall), the Knight boilers are great and I'm glad we've got it working - thanks for helping with it!

That boiler is what we call 'bridge heating' - hopefully we won't need it after this year as propane is expensive, not really necessary and carbon intensive. I believe we've got the BTU's in our geo system we're just wasting them into the ground and inefficient buildings etc. I haven't proved that yet though.

This boiler is installed in our shop, it's at the far end of the land. A few years ago, when we poured a concrete slab over the former dirt floor we installed pex for hydronic heating and it took us a while to get back to that project.

We generate about 40KW with our hydro system - we use this to power our entire facility on both sides of the river and it's sufficient most of the time. We do have a lot of electricity available at night and some people are looking at using that surplus to heat the hydronic floor at night - I want to use geo.
We do have an abundance of hot water....

Gwen

Mark Custis

Gwen

I may need to come to Oregon.

My brother and his family live in Salem.

Mark Eatherton

Interesting place...

to say the least.

http://www.breitenbush.com/

Gwen, it would be helpful if you could give us some kind of an idea of the loads connected, as well as the distribution mains.

I see on your web site that they are getting ready to bring a new well on line. In lieu of iron pipe, maybe you should consider the use of copper in your down hole heat exchanger. I'd be glad to help with the design. I made a small one for my own personal use in storing solar BTU's in the Earth.

I tried Google Earth-ing the facilities, but can't see much from outer space :-)

ME

Paul Cooke

Breitenbush

Gwen

I live about a half an hour west of Corvallis in the Coast Range.

Breitenbush is perhaps one of the most unique places in all of Oregon and because of the natural resources there (geo, wood, and hydroelectric) it has the potential to be a real example for appropriate energy technologies.

You are lucky to have found this site and I hope you are able find a way to employ the services of some of the great minds that visit here. The cumulative experience of these guys is probably in the range of several hundreds of years. That's a lot of hot water....(and only a small amount of hot air).