Oil Heat vs. Gas Heat

Robert O'Brien

Here is a copy of

the BNL study

Neatra

Hopefully these help.

Neatra

Hopefully these help. Salesman of my oil company says it's a 60 year old discontinued boiler that they no longer make parts for. The small picture is of the transformer that keeps breaking because of the needed burner.This supposedly is a major bandaid until I get a burner or upgrade to another boiler.

Perry_5

You did not answer my questions.

I accept without any debate that you can get 25% fuel savings by replacing an older boiler in most situations.

I challenge that 25% will provide a "few year payback."

I'm at about 40% savings - and there arn't no way I'm going to have a few years payback. not even for just the incremental cost of my system over just putting in a plain cast iron atmospheric boiler - even if it did not have a better efficiency than my 1950's firetube boiler (and it likely would have had a better efficiency than that old beast which had been fuel converted).

Answer my questions above on installation cost and we'll see.

Or concede the point.

Look - I'm not against higher efficiency boilers and furnaces. I am all for them. I am against what I consider misleading statements. I think the statement that in general that you can pay for a new boiler based solely on efficiency gains is misleading.

Now if you have to replace a boiler for other means.... Then a long life high efficiency boiler is likely the viable option. However, if you have been following my other thread. A short life high efficiency boiler is likely not a good option.

Perry

Robert O'Brien

Perry

I've installed many new systems that save 30-40 % With an oil fired system that uses 1000 gals/year a reduction of 35% or 350 gals/year and last summers price of $5/gal and an installed cost of $8K would yield a ROI of 18% and a payback of 4.5 years. At today's price of $2.50/gal you can double the payback period and halve the ROI. Even still, a 9% ROI tax free is pretty hard to beat!
A Mod/con for $18K will look a lot less attractive on paper,particularly if your lifespan projections are correct.And they may very well be!

Jim Franklin

It's pretty clear that fuel cost determines recovery time.

Using Roberts example, how could one sneeze at saving $1750 per year for an $8000 investment in your home?

Even at $2.50 , $875 isn't too bad either, even though recovery time is double.

The life of the system needs to be taken into account and most oil systems will give you 25 years of service if properly taken care of.

I do agree Mod/Con systems are not comparable and what I've heard of 10 year lifespans scare me.

Perry what kind of system did you install?

Mark Custis

We did not do what the customer asked.

What happenened to Nitra?

Unknown

They are listed as energy star

But do not qualify for the tax credit.

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, that's certainly an old boiler

though it's not the worst I've seen. It's an old National. Not sure who made the burner, but it definitely wasn't Honeywell- they made the control on the burner.

This could have a new burner put in, but you'd get your best efficiency from a completely new boiler.

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Neatra

Thanks for all of the helpfull comments. I will most definitely pass this web site along to all of my fellow homeowners!

Perry_5

Thank You Robert

Thanks for the information.

I've been away for a few days.

First: I interpret "a few years" to mean 2-3 years; which I believe is a common interpretation. Not 4-5, not 6-8 or 10. I believe that people saying that these systems will pay for themselves in a few years is being misleading.

Also, investments are only worthwhile if you have the money around to invest. Borrowing for an investment greatly changes the equation - and history has shown is fraught with real uncertainty.

I have no problem with the concept that the average new system will provide energy payback in the 6-10 year range - assuming you do not have to borrow the $$$. A few will do better than that, and some will do worse than that.

The real catch is how do people pay for replacing their boiler when they have to. At this point they have to do the job - and at this point moving to a high efficiency system is likely a good option to at least evaluate (and evaluate properly). The expected life of the equipment comes into play as well.

I know SW is interested in what system I have installed. I have a Vitodens 200 with the Vitocell hot water system.

Perry

Robert O'Brien

Perry

I knew what you had and obviously you did not go the least expensive route(intially) what compelled you choose what you did? From a strictly dollars and cents view a Vitodens must have a much longer or trouble free life to pay for itself

Robert O'Brien

Perry

One other point,you're correct that if the money is borrowed the math changes drastically.On the other hand what % of stainless steel appliances,big screen TV's and granite countertops are NOT financed? A Mod/Con is lot better deal financed or not than any other consumer product!

Perry_5

Why I chose the Vitodens 200 - despite its cost...

A big factor in my boiler choice decision - was my desire to abandon and someday tear out the chimney that runs up through the center of the house. There is nothing wrong with the Chimney. I just see better use of that space in the future (like air conditioning ducting). This is also why I replaced the hot water heater at the same time too.

I have always been interested in high efficiency and energy conservation. I am always willing to spend a bit more for the general good of reducing energy usage - but there are practical limits to that as well. Looking at condensing boilers was a natural.

Only the Vitodens and Triangle Tube Prestige seemed to have been designed with any engineering intelligence for a longer life - and not just to be cheap. The Vitodens 6-24 was oversized for my application (I really needed a Vitodens 4-16) - and the Prestige 110 was way oversized (about 2X). I did not see any chance that the Prestige 110 would come close to operating much at all in its highly efficient mode. The Vitodens also had a lot better software to better match my situation (adjustable reset curve, etc). I also liked from an engineering perspective the Vitodens concentric vent system; which also made more sense for me because I would have to route the air inlet & exhaust through a 1st floor closet and then out the side of the house to get above what I saw as the worst case snow line (I was recently proven right on that). It just made more sense to run 1 pipe instead of 2.

I had long ago learned that I am better off paying more to buy a quality product that last than often replacing a cheap product.

So overall - I had ruled out a conventional atmospheric boiler using my existing chimney. The Vitodens 200 was the best engineered product to match my situation - and only 1 of 2 that I did not see really obvious problems with - at least to me - a HX engineer with decades of experience in Power Plants dealing with boilers and systems.

From a money standpoint. It was painful, but I did not see any other choice if I was to abandon the chimney. I was also willing to spend more.

If I was going to reuse the existing chimney... My evaluation could have been quite different.

If I was willing to install a totally custom - unique system - I would have designed and gone with a direct in-ground refrigerant geo-thermal system. It would have had to be custom in its ability to produce heating water temperatures above 120F (I really need 150 F on the coldest weather).

Perry

frg

re: payback

One thing lost here is the payback should not be stacked against a zero equipment cost. In the OP's post the minimum he would be looking at is a new burner and install. Make an assumption about the cost of maintaining that old bone for the next X years. So equipment cost for the next 5 years may be many thousands. So add 5 years maintenance plus the cost of the burner. It is not correct to assume that you would 'never' replace a boiler. It is of course relevant to argue between a 10k install and a 20k install, but not really 10k versus 'nothing'