I seem to have a lack of oxygen in the house...

Brad White_203

Glad you are on the case. Kelly is in good hands. Both of them.

Kellys that is. OK, you do have two hands.

I will stop now.

:)

Kelly Gilbert

I seem to have a lack of oxygen in the house...UPDATE...!

Seems like there's a lack of oxygen in the house. At first I thought it smelled like some kind of smoke, but it is undistinguishable. I have a very good nose and set of lungs. We have an oil boiler and a cellar to rooftop central house chimney. I don't have a CO2 sensor. Any idea what it might be? Sometimes flap that opens and closes on the pipe going to the chimney isn't working the way it should. Should it open and close every time the furnace comes on?


01/09/09

The smoke smell is getting worse, especially in the cellar. I'm still waiting for the CO detectors I ordered from Amazon. If I thought I needed them right away I would have gone out and bought them at the store. Norm came out again and said he can't find anything wrong with the boiler, so I called the chimney guys he recommended to me and they came out that same day. Told me I need a liner immediately: that chimney is a mess! (?) After three plus hours the installation failed due to some blockage (probably old heating stove pipe in wall in kithen abutting fireplace wall in livingroom.) They have to come back out Thursday, cut a hole in the kitchen wall and remove the obstruction and then try to get the liner in.

Saturday a.m. 01/10/09

My significant other called the chimney guys because the smoke in the cellar is so bad that we are getting sick...coughing, can't breathe when the heat is on, etc. With this cold weather, the boiler is running constantly.

They told us to shut off boiler and buy or rent portable heaters. (not financially doable for us) They moved up the appointment to Tuesday. I just hope to God that this chimmney liner, which is going to cost us plenty by the time it's done, CAN be done and SOLVES whatever reason we have smoke in the cellar and all throughout the house. I WAS right...it was smoke!

Will keep posted for anyone interested. I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to write back and offer stories and advice and help. I really appreciate it a lot.

Kelly

Brad White_191

Kelly,

Call your local fire department and tell them what you told us. Ask if they can come by and test for Carbon Monoxide.

If you have a CO problem that is worst than a lack of oxygen. Seriously. Do it now. Then get a professional oil burner technician in there to do some readings and find out what the problem is. No fooling.

Unknown

Make sure the fire

department tests with the oil burner running. I just had a customer call me recently after the fire department left as he was complaining of odors. They diagnosed the problem as mold in the basement and an open sump pump hole. They never brought the gas furnace on while they tested.

Testing determined the furnace was getting air for combustion and return air from the same room, also had duct work not properly fastened to the equipment. Combustion test reveled CO in the air at the top of the cellar stairs of 150 PPM, in the furnace room it was rapidly climbing until Ii shut everything off. Further tests revealed a cracked heat exchanger. The end of the story the required Massachusetts hard wired CO detector was not working. I suspect a faulty sensor.

A complete furnace and duct work repair has been done and four (4) low level detectors have been installed all portable.

Kelly, Brad is correct get some one there immediately to test.

Mark Custis

Come on Kelley make the call

then get out of the house and write us back.

PLEASE

don_185

Say what

You guys have fireman that do co testing and furnace testing too?

Wow!It true what they say..everyone doing hvac work now.

Kelly Gilbert

Thank you for the tips...

I called Norm Harvey in Weymouth and he is coming over later this morning to check it out. It's cold, but I shut off the heat anyway to be safe. I would be too embarrassed to call the fire dept. I didn't realize we are supposed to have (state law) a carbon monoxide detector in the house (which of course, we don't.) I'll let you know what happened. Thanks again...

Mark Custis

Well done

Nice to hear from you. Norm will fix it, I am sure.

Brad White_203

Norm is awesome.

Your name sounds familiar now- glad it is Norm.

I can understand embarrassment, Kelly, but death or brain damage is permanent, not to be too dramatic.

Brad White_203

Saving Lives

When it comes to saving lives, Don, I do not care if they show up with tights and capes.

Is your sense of insecurity so much that you would look down on first responders of any stripe?

We are not talking about servicing the equipment here if you read the post, but about safety- A night in a hotel if it is the appliance and peace of mind in a warm house if not.

Getting a burner pro in there was the follow-up.

Unknown

Yes Norm should

get you fixed up. We want you to be safe first and comfortable later.

Norm Harvey

Just an update for the curiously interested.

I have a combustion slip from 8/19/2008 when I was at this property for a steam consult the results are as follows

Tstack:469.1
CO2: 11.65
CO: 10ppm
Excess air: 32.4

New test performed today

Tstack: 504.6
CO2: 11.35
CO: 47ppm
Excess air: 35.7
Breech draft: Neg -0.09
Overfire draft: Neg -0.09

Walking aroud the house with the unit having been running for 30 minutes I was reading zero ambient CO.

While I do have a rise in my CO from a few months ago, other factors appear unchanged. I check exrtraneous things that could account for strange readings, like slipping burner coupling, etc. Outside air intake clean, etc,..

Kelly is going to install a pair of CO detectors with peak level readouts and monitor the situation.

I believe it is entirely possible the smell is being caused by something else.

I've instructed Kelly to when she smells the strange odor, go over to her new CO detectors and hit the peak button to observe the sensor reading.

Due to great draft, CO under 50ppm and no ambient CO in the basement of first floor, I am confident in how we are moving forward with this, but as allways, I am open to suggestions. I very much prefer finding something really wrong.

Thanks guys!

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don_185

Hi norm

Got that fireman hat on today do we.LOL.

If I may.It looks like your overfire and breech draft are low.She could be smelling the off cycle by products.

I would stick it again and watch my o2 and co see if co is rising and o2 is falling.Also check it on shut down.
Might want to check smoke again while you're at it.

Opps.Sorry Norm,I meant to say something looks wrong with your draft readings.
I would think the excess air reading or o2 reading would be a lot higher with a 0.09 ovefired draft.

Mark Custis

Norm

Thanks. I O so off to work I go, I live in the same city as captain CO, unless he moved.

My equipment is with in calibration specs. It I die call TerryT he is close.

I am so happy I have tears in my ears.

Wait and watch.

Norm Harvey

I'm sorry Mark,.. I cant understand a word of that.

Could you try try again please?

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Mark Custis

I will try

tomarrow.

Unknown

Draft

Norm isn't that overfire and stack draft a little high,
-.09 seems real high to me?

Norm Harvey

Draft is on the high side, but that for me, goes to explain that there should be no fluegas leaking out of anyplace.

The current draft regulator is missing a weight, and can explain the abnormality in the CO,.. but what it doesnt explain to me is any odor in the house comming from the appliance?

Id think that with a high draft, even if your pulling the flame away from the retension head a bit, and abnormal products of combustion are going up the chimney.

Id be interested to hear some feedback from Kelly about if the smell has come back since this afternoon.




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nicholas bonham-carter

strange smell

sometimes the floor-drain trap can dry up, and release a musty smell. this would be on one far from a sanitary connection, so it would not have the "sewer gas" smell. a little "oil on troubled trap waters" cures that.--nbc

Kelly Gilbert

I still swear I smell a faint \"general\" smell...

of smoke in the air in the house. It smells sometimes like stale cigarette butts and my throat gets all hoarse and dry by the end of the day after spending it in the house with the heat on. (No one here smokes.) I realize that dry air causes that to happen and I do have a humidifier that I put on sometimes. At first I thought THAT was the problem, but after using the humidifier for awhile, and it didn't go away, I realized it wasn't. I suppose I should be thankful that everything tested okay, but nothing has really changed. I am thinking about having my chimney cleaned out because we've lived here 7 years without ever having it done and I know the people who lived here before us for eight years never did any maintenance at all to the house, so it couldn't hurt. Any recommendations on someone who is a good chimmney sweep who won't rip us off? I live in Whitman, MA 02382.

Thanks to everyone for all your great help.

*I just ordered two CO detectors and two 10yr battery smoke detectors today online from Amazon. I got them on sale with free shipping. (Saves me the trip)

Gordy

Fireplace ??

Kelly, do you have a fireplace ? You said you may have your chimney cleaned.

If so, and it is not capped, sometimes when heavy precipitation happens be it rain or snow. It can cause a smokey smell in the house. This is from the soot that is built up on the inside of the chimney getting wet.

You can even get it with a chimney cap sometimes, if it is a wind driven rain or snow. But it usually comes, and goes as soon as the chimney dries out.

Gordy

Steamhead (in transit)

Kelly, have you had

all the other combustion appliances in the house checked? If not, I think it would be a good idea to have Norm put his analyzer on them too. Have him fix the draft regulator on the boiler and retune it while he's there, and it will run more efficiently.

Recently I was called to a house where the CO alarm had sounded and they suspected the boiler. The boiler was fine, so was the water heater- but the oven on the stove, which was not used often, was over 1100 PPM CO/AF!!! Not sure how far over, as I shut the analyzer off at that point.

Moral of the story: check everything!

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Kelly Gilbert

Yes, We DO have a fireplace...

and no, it is NOT capped. WE were told a few years ago when we had it repointed that it wasn't necessary. (bad advice?) The house was born in 1945, so it is getting old. Everytime I mention getting the chimney cleaned, most people say it's not necessary and has nothing to do with the heat. Thanks for the tip!

Kelly Gilbert

Pardon my ignorance, but...

What appliances are considered combustibles?

Thanks, Kelly

Steamhead (in transit)

Anything with a flame

boiler, water heater, stove, dryer, any unit that burns fuel. Obviously if any of these are electric, they would not need to be tested.

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Norm Harvey

Kellys kitchen stove and Dryer are both Electric Im pretty sure.

As far as a chimney sweep, I recommend Atlantic Chimney 1-800 564-1401 Tell Bill or Bob that I sent you and they'll bump you up on the list. we do a lot of work for each other. They're workmanship is fantastic.

While they are there they can either add that draft adjuster weight or replace it all togeather. Also they can add that thimble we were talking about.



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mark ransley

Every home should have one or two CO detectors, a digital unit makes it easy to monitor any build up by pushing the Peak button, even if they do not alarm they will indicate issues you need to address now, By the time they alarm you have a major problem so checking Peak reading is smart. There are models that have Ng sensors built in. These are sold even at some grocery stores and Wal Mart. Open windows, if you are tired from this air leave.

Gordy

Have you used the fireplace??

And when it was repointed was the whole chimney inspected?
Results as far as the flue condition?

Its not pertinent that the chimney is capped as far as function. But it does keep vermin out, and the weather... Which is a good thing for the price of a chimney cap.

Does the Chimney share the same masonary as the flue for the boiler? I believe in your initial post you indicated the house has a centralized chimney.

IF so have both flues inspected when you have the chimney cleaned.

Norm, If you are reading this post. Are the flues in close enough proximety that the fireplace chimney could be pulling the exhaust from the boiler down its flue into the house?

Of course this would have been an on going issue from the start if it were so. Unless right conditions are needed. Just a thought.

I have this situation in my own home with two wood burning fireplaces sharing the same masonary. Does not always do it unless the wind is blowing just right.










Gordy

nicholas bonham-carter

hey that's when i was born!

anyway, why not wrap the front of the fireplace, to seal it temporarily. could be quite likely you are are getting a cross-connnection, either from within the flue, or blowing down from the boiler flue. if you cover it, and the smell stops, then you have a better idea where it came from.--nbc

Kelly Gilbert

Thanks...

Our stove, dryer, and (storage) water tank are all electric. That's good to know, though.

Kelly Gilbert

Thanks Norm...

I will keep that in mind when we get our taxes back. I'll let you know when our appointment is when I call, and mabye you could talk to them about what needs to be done (?)

Kelly Gilbert

Yes, we have used the fireplace...

but NOT recently, as I have been nervous about it just thinking about how it has never been cleaned. And the last time we DID use it a few years ago, the wall behind it in the next room (where there is a built-in dining room closet)seemed to get REALLY HOT.

NO ONE has ever inspected the chimney since we lived here. I didn't know that it should be done. There is one fireplace in the livingroom and it is all connected SOMEHOW(which I don't know how) to the one main central chimney. I have often wondered myself if there could be problems connected with the fireplace and the main chimney.

You should see this fireplace! I have NEVER seen one like it in my life. It is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. It has four square grates covering four square cut-out box holes all around it. (sort of framing the whole fireplace) I was told the holes are built in heat releasers of some sort. Could they be causing problems? I have no idea what they are, but they SURE ARE ugly. Could I have them filled in and covered up for esthetics sake?

Thanks for the idea of the fireplace, because this might VERY WELL be the problem. In fact, I am definitely leaning towards THIS being the actual problem, IF NOT a part of the problem.

A few years ago we had a sort of smoke "fire" in the chimney (TONS of dirty brown smoke pouring out the chimney for a long period of time) and our oil company (at the time) who also serviced our equipment put a vent directly from the boiler to the outside the house after that, but never mentioned anything about getting the chimney cleaned, which I thought was kind of weird. They told us the reason it happened was dryer lint. The dryer is very close to the boiler.

Wouldn't you think that the chimney should be cleaned after that? My significant other DOESN'T believe in fixing something that isn't broken (which I think is a really DUMB theory) so WE COULDN'T be ANY more different on that front. It is an ongoing struggle to get anything done around here needs to be done.

Roland_17

CO Detectors

Years ago, I would visit my folks on the weekend to give them a hand with projects around the house. I would avail myself of their laundry room to do a load or three. One morning I'm sitting on top of the washer (with the gas dryer and furnace running) reading the paper and I begin to feel funny. The next thing I know I'm gasping for breath and beginning to lose consciousness. I hit the garage door opener and stagger out into the icy cold and am revived by the fresh air. What happened? I leave the garage door open and go back inside. I find that the flimsy dryer vent hose is split in a dozen places and my father has effectively sealed every source of make up air in the room "because it's cold outside".
That same day I replace the vent hose and buy the folks two plug in CO detectors. Weeks later I notice that the detectors are lying on the floor. Why is this? I ask. Well every time they use the oven the detectors go off and they can't here the TV. Grrrrrrrr. I made them replace the defective oven and promise to keep the detectors powered up. Stubborn Germans! They think they know everything better. Yes they are still alive and still bugging the crap out of me.

Gordy

Ugly Fireplace

Kelley the holes in the fireplace are to circulate air around the fire box to help extract heat from it, to the room.

You do not have to of used it recently to get that smell from moisture in a chimney. Smells like a camp fire that was doused with water.

A centrally located chimney is the best to have in a house. A chimney on an exterior wall tends to conduct the cold more from the exterior. Yes the masonary on the backside of the fireplace will get warm to hot. Depending on how hot the fire is, and how long you burn one.

I really Think you need to have the flue ways inspected on your chimney, and the firebox in the fireplace itself. Any breach in the clay tile chimney liner spells problems. Any breach in the masonary of the fire box itself is a problem.


I'm a little confused about the venting of the boiler. If I understand your post correctly. It is not vented through one of the existing flues of the chimney? Or did they install a vent to the outside for make up air to the boiler?


Tell your hubby a chimney cleaning/inspection is money well spent. I clean/inspect my own. But if it has not been done in a while you need professional services to check for cracked or spalled clay flue tiles, flue tile joints out of alignment, breaches in the firebox masonary, Damper working properly.

Gordy

Hank_5

Heatilator

It looks like you have what's called a Heatilator. That's the name of the company that makes the insert. It has a steel firebox and the 4 opennings allow air circulation to improve efficiency of the fireplace. The mason builds the fireplace itself around the steel box.

The fire in the chimney several years ago probably cleaned all the creosote out that was there. We had a chimney fire at a former residence (a rental). Apparently no one had ever cleaned the chimney and our landlord said it was fine to use. It was a scary thing.

Best thing now, if you want to use the fireplace again, is to have the chimney company do a scan with a camera. The hot spot might indicate a problem with the chimney and I'd be very leery of using it.

As was mentioned, it's possible that the smell may be from down draft in that flue.

Dale

smells

Might as well mention a few thoughts myself. Certainly what all the others real experts have said is true. And, trust your own nose, I have learned over many years that most women have a better sense of smell than most men. I have some experience in these investigations and I have a heatolater type fireplace in my own home. I would not permanently block off the fireplace if the chimney proves safe. I have myself and recommend spring loaded chimney top dampers where a stainless cable comes down to close the damper tight against rain and racoons. 2 things to check, 1- Does your fireplace have an ash dump little trap door in the firebox? If it does the odor or even smoldering wood causing CO can come form the old pile of ashes and little wood chunks below it. 2- is there a fireplace cleanout door in the basement at the chimney base? If so rain can collect there and mix with the debris to make a strong smell. Reaching in to clean the bottom of this out is not for the faint of heart or good shirts. Good luck.

D107

just a added note on that

I have a fireplace flue and boiler flue side by side and I discovered some years ago that in the basement, the two flues open into a common chamber. Though I'd think combustion byproducts would flow primarily upwards--and not down into the common chamber and then possibly up through the dump door into the fireplace--we did have someone open the boiler breach and stuff insulation down into the void below the breach. Someday we will put a brick partition in so flues are completely separated. And the chimney top damper on the fireplace flue works great keeping alot of heat from escaping when we're not using the fireplace.

Also FWIW we found with a dirty stove and no range hood--vented outside--our CO alarms regularly were reading 6ppm. Since kitchen was redone, stove cleaned and vented, no problem.

David