Best Thermostat for Steam Heat Systems

ttekushan_3

I agree with Mike on the Tekmar 279. Although I've really taken a liking to the White Rogers 90 series thermostats for the "intelligent recovery" or whatever they're calling it and the very wide range adjustable heat anticipator, for your situation the Tekmar is a better bet. Use both indoor sensors if possible.

One major caveat, and this touches on what mike says about the contractor. The Tekmar 279 absolutely has to be set up by someone capable of finding the right place to install the condensate sensor and choosing the correct cycle time, etc. for the characteristics of your particular steam system. Find someone who can follow these instructions and follow through with adjustments until the system heats evenly and without undue temperature fluctuations: <a href = "http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/literature/acrobat/d279.pdf">TEKMAR 279 Instructions.</a>

If not correctly installed and set up, I fear you will find those electric radiators multiplying like the Tribbles on Star Trek!

-Terry

EDIT: Sorry NBC! You must have started typing before I did. We seem to be on the same page as far as the necessary abilities to pull off proper system control. Poor control strategies can really screw up both comfort and heating costs.

Phil_30

Best Thermostat for Steam Heat Systems

A contractor recently installed a new Weil-McLain commercial STEAM boiler (550,000BTUs) in our residential/commercial building.

As part of the new boiler installation, the contractor relocated the thermostat into a hallway corridor having with no radiators. Originally, it was located in a residential unit but because of cooking by the tenant and sunshine, the boiler would shut down prematurely and the remainder of the tenants would complain about the lack of heat.

With the new thermostat now relocated into an unheated hallway, all units became oppressively hot (84-86 degrees) because there were no radiators in the hallway to cause the boiler to shut down once the set temperature had been reached. The contractor then recommended installing an electric radiator in the hallway near the thermostat to cause the radiator to shut down once the set temperature had reached the hallway temperature, as assisted by the electric radiator. AGAIN, the temperature in all units is oppressively hot!

What kind of thermostat is best for steam heat? Would a wireless programmable thermostat help in my particular situation above by allowing the thermostat sensor to be placed in various units until a happy medium is reached? If you suggest a wireless thermostat, what brand and model number do you recommend?

Thanks,

Phil

Unknown

A situation like yours is best controlled by an outdoor reset steam control, which sets the cycle time based on outdoor temperature. In this system, no indoor thermostat is used, although an indoor sensor may be added to prevent overheating. This is pretty much the standard system used in large steam heated residential buildings. The controllers are made by companies like Heat-Timer and Tekmar. The Tekmar 279 is a new model and incorporates a lot of nice features.

The proposed solution of adding an electric radiator in the thermostat location really can't work. The heat output of the radiator is not obtained from the boiler and therefore is not under the control of the thermostat. With a suggestion like that, I wonder if your contractor really knows what he is doing?

nicholas bonham-carter

i wonder too

i also would be wary of anyone, posing as a professional, who makes such a sugestion!

the other type of thermostat you could use is the honeywell visionpro with a couple of indoor sensors. the sensors could be placed on inside walls of rooms where there is a radiator in the area. they will average the temperature between the sesors, and be under the control of the central visionpro unit [located in a secure area].it seems to work well with steam.

while i think the centralized control unit with outdoor sensor is capable of better control, it is more complicated to program,and since you seem not to have a competent steam tech around might be a difficult choice.--nbc

nicholas bonham-carter

that's o k

i agree that the centralised sort of control, like the tekmar would be best, and it may be my next project, now that i have my "lazy condensate" problem under control with my reservoir, or "range" tanks installed.

one important thing i have learned with these old steam systems--do one thing at a time, so you know what the effects are.--nbc

Phil_30

Honeywell Visionpro vs Tekmar 279

On a reply from nicholasbc@aol.com, he seems to feel the way I do, and that is, the Tekmar 279 would be more complicated to program. Because of this complexity, I would need to find a competent steam tech in NJ where I live. How would I go about trying to find such a tech?

Regarding the suggestion for a Visionpro thermostat with a couple of sensors, would anyone have model specific model numbers? Also, would the sensors have to be hard wired or are wireless versions available?

I have not completely ruled out the Tekmar 279 at this time and would welcome experiences from others who have are actually using the Tekmar 279,

Thanks,

Philip DeSimone

eluv8

Similar situation--would outdoor reset help cut costs

Three story, six unit condo building with White-Rogers programmable thermostat in one of the first floor units. (As with the original post, our common areas lack radiators.) The owners of the unit with the thermostat act responsibly regarding weather-proofing (storm windows in place, caulking leaks and adding weather-stripping).

The thermostat is set at 68-70 (don't remember exactly) with a modest night setback. If other units aren't warming up to the thermostat setting, the owners are expected to address issues within their units before the problem is brought to the association--e.g., decrease heat loss (everyone is not as conscientious about weatherizing as the owners of the thermostat unit), replace clogged radiator vents.

Given this set of circumstances, would an outdoor reset be inherently more energy efficient than the thermostat?

(We recognize that this is not an ideal setup, i.e., that so much depends upon the cooperation of the owners of that unit, but we need to assign priorities to our to-do list.)

Thank you

FJL

Wireless Remote Sensor

Until last winter, my coop had the same setup: t-stat in the hallway. All apts got overheated. Last winter, we installed a t-stat with a sensor in the top apt and fuel consumption was reduced by about 20%.

White and Rodgers makes a t-stat with a wireless remote sensor It is the White-Rodgers 1F85RF-275 Thermostat and Wireless Remote Sensor Kit. Google it and you will find places to purchase it.

You can find it on the White-Rodgers website here:

http://parts.white-rodgers.com/common/partsearch/search_common.asp?ITEM=1F85RF-275&CMD=DisplayInfo

Unknown

If you are able to maintain 68-70 degrees in all of the apartments without overheating, and the tenants can all cooperate to achieve this goal you are doing pretty well.

In your situation, I don't think you would gain much in efficiency, as the outdoor sensing would only give you the uniform temps that you already seem to have now.

The main advantage of outdoor sensing occurs in the situation like Phil's where the location of an indoor thermostat presents a technical (and political!)problem.

Phil_30

Reply to EasilyFound

Does anyone know if the White-Rodgers 1F85RF-275 Thermostat (with wireless remote sensor) has cycles that can be set, which I hear is particularly good for STEAM heating systems?

I am looking at the Honeywell VisionPro 8000 which allows you to set 1-12 cycles per hour. The Honeywell rep suggested that that the thermostat be set to ONE cycle per hour, in the case of steam heat. Does that make sense?

If all can reply soon, I am looking to purchase a thermostat this afternoon.

Thanks so much!

Phil

Phil_30

Steam Heat / Thermostat / Cycles per Hour Option

Does anyone know if the White-Rodgers 1F85RF-275 Thermostat (with wireless remote sensor) has cycles that can be set, which I hear is particularly good for STEAM heating systems?

I am looking at the Honeywell VisionPro 8000 which allows you to set 1-12 cycles per hour. The Honeywell rep suggested that that the thermostat be set to ONE cycle per hour, in the case of steam heat. Does that make sense?

If all can reply soon, I am looking to purchase a thermostat this afternoon.

Thanks so much!

Phil

ttekushan_3

No such thing as ideal, but \"close\" is good.

Every method has a shortcoming or two and don't forget the big wildcard --tenants' perception of temperature.

Regarding the use of today's sophisticated thermostats, I make this kind of installation under many circumstances. I see little shortcoming if the thermostat is placed in a good "control" location that pretty accurately represents conditions around the building.

Actually, the technique of placing a thermostat in a weatherized suite to encourage weatherizing on the part of the other suite owners is a brilliant enticement for curbing heat loss and overall energy savings!

The outdoor reset controls really need the indoor sensors. Without them I've noticed that the high thermal mass buildings where steam heat is found exhibit an interesting phenomenon. The outdoor sensor reacts more quickly to temperature changes outdoors than the building will allow to pass through the walls. So a cool fall night might get the heat to come on when building temps are very comfortable, and vice versa: a warm spell in spring comes along and the heat shuts off and the radiant heat absorbed by the walls makes the suites feel like a mausoleum. Then evening comes and there's no boost to bring it up to temp quickly as the control goes back to its timed on/off sequence. Then there's wind. Without sensors, the outdoor sensor doesn't know from added heat loss from high winter winds. And sun. But we don't have any sun during Cleveland winters so I don't consider that a problem :-) Anyway, I think I've made my point. You really need some kind of indoor feedback.

-Terry

P.S.
You can have every single room in the building identical in temperature, and someone will complain. Just yesterday I was called to a regular client's apartment building (~1925, single pipe steam, 26 big suites) with a no heat call in ONE apartment. No heat all winter. They were using space heaters (yikes). Hmmm. I figured the valves must have been closed at some point since they moved in this fall. I walk in and its every bit of 69-70 degrees, and quite comfortable I thought, since they had not yet turned on the space heaters for the evening. The radiators were still warm from the last heat cycle. Turns out, this family moved to Cleveland from Alabama and this is their first northern winter! Apparently for recent transplants from the deep south 70 degrees is uncivilized and 68 degrees is just plain barbaric! When I said that it felt very nice in their apartment, the shivering woman flashed me a cold look. Oops.

All I could do was install a faster vent on each radiator, and removed those infernal radiator shelves/covers that every radiator in the building has. Big difference. Now they are the only ones in the building with 74 degrees --and loving it!

ttekushan_3

variable heat anticipator

sets the cycles. From 1 to 40-something. (sounds like my age!) 5-10 for forced air, 30 or so for hydronic. I usually use between 22 (for steam copper convectors) to the 40 mark for high mass iron radiators.

Phil_30

Follow up

What do you think of the Honeywell ProVision 8000 thermostat with settable cycles per hour installed in one apartment that is a good "control" location that pretty accurately represents conditions around the building?

Thanks,

Phil

nicholas bonham-carter

visionpro

you could always mount the honeywell indoor sensor [cost-about a grant] in the apt, and the thermostat itself in a more protected location. when the indoor sensor [or more than one] is connected the thermostat serves as a control panel only, with the indoor sensor doing the sensing.if there are 2 sensors, the average temperature is read.
this would reduce the possibility of someone "playing" with the settings.--nbc

FJL

Honeywell Vision Pro 8000

The VisionPro TH8000 Series t-stat works with an indoor sensor, but not a wireless one. It is connected by a wire. This is the set up that we use. The t-stat is in the hallway, and we ran a wire up underneath the stairs to the fourth floor apt, where we installed the sensor. It has worked well for us. As I said, we saved about 20% in fuel consumption after installing the new t-stat with a remote sensor. I believe we're using the TH8110U t-stat.

The White-Rodgers t-stat with a remote wireless sensor was not on the market when we shopped for a t-stat with a remote sensor. I have no idea whether it can be set for cycles per hour. We have the VisionPro set to cycle once per hour.

One note about using the VisionPro with a remote sensor. It is set up to work with one sensor but not two. If you want to use more than one, the next number you can use is 4. Nothing in between. You can go above 4, but I can't recall now what the next number is that you must use. Check the Honeywell webiste and read the installation and manuals for the t-stat and sensor.

Mad Dog_2

Mike's advice is what I would say.....

Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Phil_31

Honeywell Commercial VisionPro 8000 - Remote Sensor Question

I purchased the Honeywell Commercial VisionPro 8000 thermostat along with the remote senor C7189U.

According to the thermostat instructions, your must tell the thermostat (via installer set up codes) that a remote temperature senor is connected.

The code # 0340 choices are:

0—None
1—Outdoor for Display
2—Outdoor for Control
3—Remote 10K Indoor
4—Remote 20K Indoor

I would select 3 or 4, but I am not sure which one. The remote temperature sensor I purchased (C7189U) does not indicated 10K or 20K.

Can someone help?

Thanks.

Phil

Phil_31

Honeywell Commercial VisionPro 8000 and Remote Indoor Sensor

I purchased the Honeywell Commercial VisionPro 8000 thermostat along with the remote senor C7189U.

According to the thermostat instructions, your must tell the thermostat (via installer set up codes) that a remote temperature senor is connected.

The code # 0340 choices are:

0—None
1—Outdoor for Display
2—Outdoor for Control
3—Remote 10K Indoor
4—Remote 20K Indoor

I would select 3 or 4, but I am not sure which one. The remote temperature sensor I purchased (C7189U) does not indicated 10K or 20K.

Can someone help?

Thanks.

Phil

FJL

Not Sure

I don't think I can help, unfortunately. I purchased the TH8110U, which I assume is non-commercial, but doesn't say either way. I'm looking at the installation guide now, and I have only one option, which is "3" for "Indoor Sensor."

Unknown

The C7189U is a 10K sensor according to the Honeywell data sheet. The 20K setting may possibly be for the situation where you want to use 2 sensors and connect them in series.

Phil_31

Honeywell Commercial VisionPro 8000 - Remote Sensor Question

Mike:

Thanks. I looked all over and could not find any technical specs for the remote temperature sensor (model C7189U). Where did you find them?

Phil

Unknown

Here:

http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/PackedLit/69-1710EFS.pdf

They don't directly say it's a "10K sensor", but there is a chart which shows resistance readings vs. temp. A 10K sensor will measure 10000 Ohms at 77F.

Jaime_3

Heat-Timer

I also have a commercial building and of cost looked in the whole range of controls with outside resets and such. A dealer lead me on to heat-timer stat that i can add (4) remote sensors wired to a selectable switch with an average setting. I installed the (4) sensors at different areas throughout the apartments and for the most part does a good job. By taking the average, I am always covered by tenants baking a cake, opening windows and such. What are your thoughts

Jaime_3

Difference between differential and cph

What is the difference between differential and CPH. What should be the correct differential set for?

narcaparbebra

Would adding a vaporstat help control costs...

given our situation (i.e., thermostat is placed in a good "control" location)?

If so, how does this work?

I understand why lower pressure is more efficient. I don't understand why lowering and fine-tuning the operating range with a vaporstat does not result in the boiler cutting out on pressure several times/heating cycle, eating into any energy savings.

Does the vaporstat control the boiler firing rate?

I've googled this, searched the board, read Dan's book, but I haven't found an explanation of exactly why a vaporstat is better than a pressuretrol. I figure the answer is either very complicated--in which case I'd be happy if someone just points me in the right direction for further reading; or embarrassingly obvious--if so, it won't be my first stupid question.

mark ransley

Im not an installer but steam owner of apartments, If a tech put a stat in a unheated hall then recomended a electric heater I would immediatly get a pro or 2 out to go over his install on the boiler to double check his hilbilly mentality and hope my check hasnt cleared, ive seen to many instal errors, but his ideas are scary. This is the most ilogical place to put a stat and then recommend non boiler controlled electric heating to run it. An outside contol doesnt measure what is inside. I get by with simple Honywell stats in one unit and have even heat to an great extent. The best would be several remote sensors to avg temp for when cooking can set the stat down and outside temp swings. Get something simple you can know and adjust and change, "the pro" may not even get right something difficult, you dont want to have to call someone when there is an issue of balancing or changing.

nicholas bonham-carter

cost control

the vaporstat and its ability to keep pressures low, will contribute to comfort, and proper operation of the system.venting is usually improved [ with adequate venting of course].surface temperature of the radiators is reduced. the speed of steam arrival is increased[with adequate venting].

which method uses less fuel: heating your pipes and rads to 212 deg, or heating them to 220deg ? likewise what is more economical: waiting 20 minutes for steam arrival or waiting 40 ?

proper heating equiptment operation is like cooking a meal.there are many ingredients which play a part.the most important of which is NOT OVER COOKING. 2nd is good quality ingredients--nbc

RonWHC

'Scuse me, Mr. Ransley.

Why should espousing a not particularly smart idea mean that person has "hillbilly mentality?" I happen to believe that controlling heat, in a multi-family apartment building, w/ a stat in any one apartment is less than optimal. Does that mean I should call you a Know Nothing Yankee? Don't think so.

Phil_31

hilbilly mentality

Believe it or not, our utility company (yes, the one that supplies our gas and electricity!) installed the new steam boiler and relocated the thermostat to an unheated hallway. After about a week, I called the utility company and told them that most apartment units were overheating (sometimes to 84-86 degrees). That’s when they told us that we should purchase a small oil filled electric radiator and place it in the hallway near the thermostat to regulate the cycling of the boiler and to prevent over heating. Needless to say, this solution did not work either because there is no way that small electric radiator could heat the hallway, which is very large.

Everyone I told, from the plumbing supply distributor to various heating contractors, all had the same comment; the installer of the steam boiler (the utility company) had to be totally incompetent to locate the thermostat to the hallway, as they had done.

Unfortunately, when our old steam boiler died, it was on one of the coldest days of the year so far and we really did not have the luxury to shop around. The utility company removed the old boiler the next day and on the day after installed the new boiler. Needless to say, the utility company charged a very hefty price for the new boiler.

A couple of days ago, based on all the input I received from heatinghelp.com’s wall, I purchased the Honeywell Commercial VisionPro 8000 thermostat and a remote sensor. The HVAC/mechanical contractor I hired to install both of these items yesterday was very competent, thorough, and extremely quality oriented. I am happy to report that there has been a tremendous improvement in the comfort level of all the apartments.

Phil_31

Should All Radiators be Open ?

With a steam heating system, should all radiators be opened?

I had closed a couple a couple of radiators in two apartments within our apartment building because the tenants complained it was too hot.

When our boiler recently died and had to be replaced, the contractor told me that all of the radiators should be opened in a one pipe steam heating system.

Comments on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Phil

Phil_31

Radiators - Opened or Closed

With a steam heating system, should all radiators be opened?

I had closed a couple a couple of radiators in two apartments within our apartment building because the tenants complained it was too hot.

When our boiler recently died and had to be replaced, the contractor told me that all of the radiators should be opened in a one pipe steam heating system.

Comments on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Phil

nicholas bonham-carter

radiator valves open or closed

yes the valves on 1-pipe system radiators should NOT be closed. they will probably not seal and may allow steam in but not allow condensate out, which starves the boiler of water.

far better solution is to make sure the main venting is working properly at a pressure lower than 16 ounces. of course the radiator vents must work as well. some makes of air-vent [hoffman] can be turned upside down, which prevents them from working, and shuts off steam to the radiator. the best route to steam economy is a well-maintained system!--nbc

Phil_31

main venting

What do you mean by main venting?

Are individual thermostatic steam radiator valves recommended in apartments that are too hot for some tenants?

Thanks.

nicholas bonham-carter

main venting

these are the air vents on the main steam pipes at the return end, close to the boiler. they remove 90% of the system air as the boiler is beginning to make steam.

if they are not functioning, the system will have trouble getting the steam to all the radiators at the same time. the radiators air vents have only enough capacity to assist the main vents, and cannot do the whole job by themselves.

in conjunction with low system pressure [under 16 ounces], proper venting assures more even heat with shorter steam arrival times, and therefore increased boiler life, comfort and fuel economy.--nbc

Phil_32

Venting

I think I know what you are talking about. There are one or two pipes near the boiler that have valves on them, simiar to a radiator valve. Are these the air vents you talk about?

The other day, one of these valves near the boiler was really hissing loudly, so my father replaced it with another one he had lying around the basement.

How do I know if my father used the correct valve/air vent? It seems to take a long time for the steam to reach the radiators on the second floor of the apartment building

Phil_31

Balanced Steam Heating System

I've heard that if all the radiators in a particular apartment and/or within an apartment building are not heating up at the same time, then system is not balanced.

If the above is true, what do I need to do to balance my system?

There has also been a lot of talk on the wall about main vents. When looking to replace the main vent, what spec should I be looking for?

Thanks,

Phil

nicholas bonham-carter

balance

that is the goal-to have all steam arrive at the radiators at the same time.

the method-to remove all the air from the pipes and radiators at the same time.

the original installers of steam were very good at matching the size of the room, and its exposure to the size of the radiator. naturally if the steam is now late in one room because of lack of venting maintainance, that room will be cold as a result. if the thermostat is then turned up to compensate, the rest of the rooms will be overheated.

the main vents will be doing most of the work, so get good vents for your mains first. be careful of your system pressure, as these vents can become inoperative at pressures above 2psi, and permanently inoperative a couple of psi above that. vents, being so important, should be new, or as new. if you find one on the floor, or in the scrap-yard, only use it for the paperweight it is, and buy new ones. the best pressure for your system is from 2 ounces to 12 ounces. my 54 rad bldg. has vented itself with 3 ounces! ironically, the pressuretrol that is supplied with most new boilers is unreliable at these low settings, and should be replaced with a vaporstat right off the bat, though it's not such a handsome paperweight, as a good old main vent!--nbc

rob739

Sometimes just think

This is so amazing.  An electric heater in the hallway to remedy the thermostat problem.  I think a fourth grader can tell you that there is NO relationship here between the electric heater and the thermostat!!!

How about this solution... place the electric heater in the building next door.

Yep!!  See if that helps that thermostat better control a number of areas of which the thermostat is in NONE of them.

Serious now:

Here is a very simple solution that may avoid the purchase of an expensive thermostat with remote sensors.  MOVE the thermostat into one of the rooms that is heated by the system this thermostat controls (pick the room that is middle between the coldest and warmest room).  Seriously... your "expert" with the electric heater advice... he doesn't even understand basic concepts of physics or control systems.

Here are a few silly "solutions" that will work as well as his:

1.) Move the thermostat int some other building on the street.

2.) Put humidifiers in all of the rooms maybe even get some for the building 3 doors down

3.) Try high test next time you purchase fuel and see if that helps the thermostat.



Seriously... so funny to read some of this stuff.  I mean... pulling your hair out because the THING used to determine how much heat is needed in an area... is not IN that area.

ChrisL

Tekmar shortcoming

I just want to point out that the Tekmar steam controller only uses the indoor temp sensor  as a secondary check on whether to provide a heat call.  The heat call is solely determined by the re-set curve.  It then checks room temp to be sure it is below setpoint before turning boiler on.  So, if you have a very windy day, and the unit is cooler than the reset curve is programmed for, the boiler will not go on!  Because of this shortcoming, I am not a fan of the tekmar on anything less than a very well insulated building.  Unfortunately, most steam heated buildings do not fall in this category.

ChrisL