20,000ppm CO in CO

bob_46

20,000 ppm CO in the crawl space and 5,000 ppm CO in the bed room. These were the test results when an investigation team fired up a mod/con snowmelt boiler in a house in Aspen,CO. They mention that the vent had been dislodged. Tragically a family of four died there in NOV. There was no CO detector in the home a code violation.

J.C.A._3

So....

Who hangs? The installer...or the inspector.

Bigger question...Was there a permit pulled ? IF SO..was there an inspection?

My condolences to the families(who are relatives of one of my customers BTW!)
But the parties who will make all the dough will be lawyers. Tragic in our eyes...profits in theirs. What a crazy flipping world we live in. JCA

Mark Eatherton

Here's the Aspen TImes article...

Someone, probably numerous someone's are in serious hot water...

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20090108/NEWS/901079915&parentprofile=search

Did you know that musical instruments are an integral part of a flue gas evacuation system? I didn't... No joke intended. Just pointing at the glaring misinterpretation...

ME

Unknown

Reading the article

I am questioning if the chimney "flute" was actually meant to say flue and if the chimney was being used as a chase?

My concern is that recently I have found three different jobs with elbows on PVC that had been glued which came apart. My concern is that high temperature due to a partially blocked flue caused them to come apart.

When are we going to stop using PVC and CPVC it is dangerous.

marco_7

agree with Tim

Why is it ok to use PVC on these euro boilers here when in Europe they don't use it? Do we know something that they don't, or vice versa? Ask PVC pipe manurafturers what they think about pvc as a flue pipe...ipex has certified some of their CPV as venting http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/Common/5_0_News/5_3_More_News/news_details.asp?id=98.

Henry

After reading the article, it seems that the instalation was not done according to the manufacturers instructions. If one has pvc fittings that come unglued, it is due to improper methods ie: not using a primer, using old glue. The flue gas temperature will not have an effect on the glued joint if properly done. If the appliance is defective and produces much higher gas temperatures, then the pvc or cpvc will start to deform. The S636 pvc and cpvc that is certified in Canada for venting is really no different from the sch 40 pvc and cpvc.

The gas appliance manufacturers have tested their equipment for use with various plastic vents both here and overseas. The certified instruction manuals include which material is to be used for venting. If one follows the certified instruction manual and has good workmanship, there is no risk to the occupants.

Unknown

Henry could you

please refer me to testing results and approvals for PVC and CPVC. I did a series of articles a while back in the HVAC Insider on special venting. Part of that article concerned use of these materials for venting. My research could not come up with anything that indicated testing and approval of these plastics for venting. I would much appreciate any research you have done. I can't seem to find a letter from the President of Viesmann speaking against using these materials. I wish I could find it I will keep looking and post it if I find it.

One of my direct concerns on MOD/CON equipment is when they are running for domestic hot water with an indirect. It has been my finding upon testing a number of these that higher than normal flue gas temperatures have occured.

The three jobs in particular that I found with seperated fittings did have proper gluing and had been cleaned and the folks I had test them determined they seperated due to excessive sustained temperatures.

We have had this dilema in the past with Plexvent and Ultravent materials that seperated and came apart at temperatures below their rated operating temperatures. They eventually have been pulled from the market.

With Europeans using polypropylene as a venting material which has a flue gas temperatue rating I believe of around 450 degrees we should take a lesson or better yet go to metal stainless steel vents like Al-294C.

We also have this being used on water heaters with the new FVIR technology on power vented and direct vent applications. Those water heaters I have tested as also has Jim Davis have been found at times to have vent gas temps of a net reading of 550 Degrees (F), that by the way is the maximum for Type B gas vent so high temps are a definite concern of mine.

I could go on here with PVC findings in the field of mushy pipe, cracked fittings etc. We are playing with peoples lives here and I have been doing this a long time and have not killed anyone yet. So from my perspective I will not use plastics on any venting. For intake air it is no problem as far as I know. I do know that cholrides can cause combustion issues so if any chlorides are being drawn in through PVC and CPVC with intake air then we have another problem to address. Some of the green stuff I am seeing on coils tells me some of that may be occuring.

Having been at this business for over 50 years I always tell my trainees "it may be allowed or it may be up to code, but bottom line it has to work" if it is not working lets find out why. The best test is not the one in the lab it is the one in the field.

Steamhead (in transit)

\"If one follows the certified instruction manual

and has good workmanship".... Henry, you nailed it. Read the freakin' manual and do what it says. Shouldn't be THAT difficult......

But due to the outrageous percentage of knuckleheads, idiots etc. who are attempting to install these units and apparently find reading the manual too difficult, I have to take the position that they have to be idiot-proof.

Therefore, I agree with Tim. No plastic pipe is suitable for venting.

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Henry

Tim, email me. There is presently a task force that is looking into the difference between appliance certifying flue temperatures and the way this is performed and ULC S636 venting material standards. We are also looking into sidewall venting problems.

We install many, many Lochinvar Knights with a brased heat exchanger that is connected to one or more storage tanks. Nest Tuesday we will install 2 KBN600 with a 500,000 brased plate and 250 gallons of storage. The venting will be sidewall PVC and ABS air inlet. I have experienced clorites from PVC pipe in various application. Therfore I won't use pvc in any air inlets. BTW, ABS has a higher temperature resistance than pvc! The trick to have good flue temperatures and a condensing boiler condensing, is having a high delta T thus a proper pump selection. Once more, you had to read the manufacturers manual to get the proper info. Do NOT rely on ANY information given to you by the guy at the counter! He has never installed one!

Unknown

Thanks Henry

I will e-mail you when I can shake a little time free. I am in the middle of teaching a bunch of classes. I am very interested in any research or in the field work being conducted on this.

Tim Weaver

idiot proof

Not even stainless is idiot-proof. Got a call about zone valves not working; and "while your here, can you give us any ideas about the moisture in the basement?" The zone valves weren't working because of the typical mass of jumbled wires and loose wire nuts. The moisture in the basement was because of a fallen-apart AL 29 stainless horizontal vent insufficiently supported in a boxed in area of the basement cieling.

Mitch_6

heat exchanger issues

I have seen the ABS on Trianco CB units crack because the heat exchanger gets clogged and flue gas temps rise and melt the pipe.

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