Dan, It's Time To Look To The Future

ttekushan_3

Interesting philosophy.

vib said:


"...FUN...TO LOOK AT THE PAST AND HOW IT DOESN'T RELATE TO THE FUTURE"


Let that sink in. I am without comment.

Perry_5

TypeWitter Usage...

While I admit that over 95% of all task that typewritters were used for that computers and modern printers can do better - there are still some things that a typewritter can do better.

That is why they are still being used predominantly in at least 2 business areas that I know of.

It is also why I still have a typewriter. I have some minor tasks - that I only need to do on occasion - that is still best done on a typewriter. I have tied to do this on modern printers and the results are not cost effective.

I also note that mechanical pinhead printers are also still produced as they can do multi-part self carbon forms. Neither inkjet or laser can do that.

Who knows, perhaps someday you will find that something you want done - or need to be done - is actually best done on a typewriter. Or perhaps you will never know - and never be able to see - the difference a typewriter can make in certain situations.

Perry

ttekushan_3

you'll never see proof of that statement.

The only place there's any generally accepted difference is in AFUE efficiency of the steam boiler vs a condensing boiler. Steam has the advantage in distribution, all other things being equal. The only argument I've heard on steam distribution losses is that the temperature of the pipe is higher than that of a low temp water pipe. That argument quickly falls apart when one realizes that the amount of total enthalpy lost across that line is miniscule as a proportion heat reaching its destination. The latent heat is doing the heating, and all thats supplied to the heat exchangers is utilized. The steam and its latent heat content no long exist for the return route to the boiler. The remaining heat in the condensate is tiny compared to what was left by the release of latent heat. Hot water systems have their useful heat going in two directions instead. So we insulate the piping.

The heat loss argument usually reveals the mindset and reference point of the person making it. When you work in low temp hydronics and don't consider the dynamic changes occurring within a steam system you tend to view things in terms of, say, delta T. If thats how one analyzes a steam system, conclusions on reticulation efficiency will be dead wrong. Even delta P on a steam system is different and is subject to change throughout the heating cycle as the proportion of condensible gas to non condensible gasses and liquid changes. You have to know the system's state, with pressure telling you something different at a cold start vs steady operation. Often, "water people" will ony see the result of an inability to "read" a steam system, that being excessive energy use. It never occurs to many that the symptom of high energy use is just that --a symptom. Well, don't blame the steam system unless it was poorly designed to begin with or badly modified, most of which can be corrected. Now, if you have a vested interest in not understanding the system you're working with, well...

---

To illustrate a few differences, at cold start, air - a non condensible gas, acts far differently in piping and HX's than steam, a condensible gas. Steam generated in a boiler compresses air thus maintaining pressure in the system. Air is exchanged for steam. Now the pressure gage is giving you different information. This is one way to detect proper venting, which improves efficiency.

Condensing steam creates a vacuum to pull steam as much as the boiler needs to push it. The colder the HX, the greater the vacuum and the greater the heat delivered. There's no such thing as "cooled-off steam" impeding the flow of "hot steam" into the HX to be pumped away, as there is with water and air heating. If there's a screw-up somewhere in the piping or steam supply, steam progress can actually stall within extremely cold (freezing temp usually) HX's. Steam heating's dynamic circulation i.e., the "pull" on the steam supply caused by the release of latent heat, is developed proportionally by the need for heat distribution itself.

Furthermore, the above illustrates why modulating a steam boiler saves so much energy. The steam boiler doesn't need the pick-up factor at all after the boiler is done pushing air out of the system but it does need all that output if the heating demand is high. The gage pressure at the boiler can tell you what's going in the far reaches of the system. As long as the lower firing rates don't allow air back into the system, we can go lower and lower as demand drops. Delta T tells you nothing. Return temperature is irrelevant since there's no latent heat there.

---

Do you see what I'm getting at? The latent-heat heating process is so different from circulating water or air that using parameters measured and managed in a hot water system will tell you nothing relevant about a steam system. Herein lies the basis of most flawed comparisons between HW and steam. You'd be better off approaching steam heating from a thorough refrigeration background, IMO.

I understand that there are those who won't worry their pretty little heads over learning a subject to the depth required to make useful criticisms. I myself am critical of many steam heating system designs that I have encountered. Economizing and properly tuning and designing steam systems (including doing work-arounds with troublesome systems) requires a level of understanding and knowledge that is no different than any other endeavor if you value results. If you take your profession seriously and continually strive for greater knowledge then you come to places like this, among others, to learn and share.

If you wish neither to learn nor share, perhaps you are in the wrong place. Most constructive contributors here are armed with theory, direct experience and curiosity whatever their stance. And we like to help others. Vapid criticisms without any useful experience on the subject of the criticism is something most of us here are not accustomed to. Many of us continue to bringto this thread detailed facts and experience without reciprocation of any substance whatsoever. I like the Monty Python "Argument" sketch as much as the next guy. Maybe more. An argument is not the same as contentiousness.

Like the old saying goes, it takes a skilled carpenter to put up a nice barn door, but any old **** can kick it down.

-Terry

ttekushan_3

seriously,

I do, indeed have IBM selectric and a manual remmington/rand on hand (re tensioned, of course). I still marvel at the IBM's incredible electro mechanical action. And that they mass produced it.

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, if you have the numbers

then how about posting them, along with their source and how the study was conducted, what variables were involved, etc? If they exist, let's see them!

But I really don't think you have such numbers, do you?

Like I've said many times, I have never seen such a study, at least one that was done right. Comparing a broken-down steam system (which is almost always due to sheer neglect) to a brand-new hot-water system is NOT a valid method. Never has been, never will be, yet people continue to do it.

And I don't remember them covering steam or hot-water heating systems in my high-school science courses. They did cover combustion.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Vib, I go to Dan's classes whenever possible

not just on steam, but whatever he happens to be teaching. Also George Lanthier, Tim McElwain, Alan Mercurio and others, even if we've dealt with that subject matter before.

Why? Because not only are these gentlemen some of the best in the business, but I always pick up something new every time I go to hear them.

None of us will ever "know it all". There's always the latest device found in a basement, the most recently discovered variation of the basic system, whatever. For example, one that Gordo and I found (and were able to put a name to) was the Tudor system, the first Orifice Vapor design. There are five in Baltimore that we know of. I bet you hear about this at Dan's steam seminar now.

And one of these days, I will build such a system.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Wasn't Brayton

the same one who invented the two-cycle gas engine?

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ScottMP

Perry

there are still some things that a typewritter can do better.

Please name a few, considering that a pin type can do multi-forms ??

This place is starting to sound like Luddite.com

Scott

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ttekushan_3

Looking at subject lines

and its interesting to note what shows up now vs several years ago. Quick example in steam world- "wet steam." Water and steam quality become increasingly significant with lower water content/smaller water surface boilers replacing the big 'uns of yore. For quite a while it was rarely discussed as those encounters were formerly rare. Now we see all kinds of vexing heating system problems due merely to the contaminants of boiler and piping installation.

I learned it when doing descaling and neutralization with alkaline water treatments. The process inherently produces wet steam until all contamination released by the descaling process is dispatched. Once the steam is dry, I discovered thats often the best place to start before balancing vents.

These are problems decidedly rotund boilers of the past didn't have to any large degree.

BTW, in my neck of the woods along lake eire we have very high calcium levels. Much of the East doesn't have this problem. I only mention it since you people probably think "What's Terry's obsession with descaling boilers? We don't have no stinkin' boiler scale!"

Tony_23

Sure can

1/2" pex, 300 ft loops, 140* water, .7 gpm/loop = 5.25 ft hd.

No guessing, it's in the book.

The common 007 moves 15 gpm at that head, the 006 moves 4 gpm and the little known 005 moves 12. None of these are considered high head circs.

Please stop making statements as if they were facts if you're only guessing. At least research it first.

I get the impression that you're trying to dissuade people from getting radiant floor heat and/or mod/con boilers. Is that true ? If so, why ?

bob young

WHAT TYPE SPATS DO YOU WEAR FOR WORK

Perry_5

A few things a Typewritter does better than a printer.

1) If you need to write a document that contains very sensitive information - a manual typewriter cannot be read - nor the file recovered from. Thus, certain security services do in fact use typewriters for certain things. I do note that it is possible to read certain forms of electric typewriters from a distance and record every stroke it makes.

2) If you are going to do a personal note on 100% cotton bond paper, longer than a handwritten note. Typed is best. I note that 100% cotton bond paper does bad things to a laser printer drum (something I've learned the hard way); also, some people appreciate something hand done instead of computer done.

100% cotton bond paper has other legitimate uses as well; there is a real reason it is still made and available (although not in most office supply stores).

I note that ink jet does not work well on most 100% cotton bond paper either (another thing I've learned).

Perry

Perry_5

Duplicat post

Sorry

Perry_5

I have researched it...

I have well researched the issue, and am surprised that you have not. Please see attached Cast Iron Baseray baseboard manual, page 2:

The longest radiator in my house: 16 ft. @ 1 GPM = 0.33 inches of water of head (or about 1/36 ft of head). If you built a heating system using these on a 2 pipe system the total system head would be less than 1 Ft. You could even kick the flow up to 4 GPM (page 3) and still have a very low head system.

For any given heat transfer to a room - you have substantially less head loss for the same flow rate (an order of magnitude or more less head) by using cast iron baseboard than by using pex in the floor or walls.

Less head loss for the same flow rate = less pumping power = more efficient heating system.

Please design any intelligent system you chose in PEX - then design it intelligently with baseboard - and tell me which has less power requirements to pump the water.

I have no problems if someone wants radian floor heat because they like to have warm floors. I do have a problem in people selling it based that it is more efficient than baseboard - I think that is misrepresentation (and the studies I have seen have disproved the concept that people keep there house cooler with warm floors and thus use less heat).

I have a secondary concern with the life of PEX. A good baseboard system should last 100+ years.

As far as mod/con boilers. Great concept. I even have one myself. It is the most efficient boiler. My concern is that the vast majority of current mod/con boilers were not designed to be long lived - did not consider what is well known about the application and suitable metals - and will never pay for their premium price due to being fairly short lived items. I am cautiously optimistic about the life of the Vitodens 200 - but even there I know it can be affected by things (and the payback for the improved efficiency is long - not short).

The sad thing is that there is a well proven material out there to build boiler HXs from - and several others identified in research papers of over a decade ago that would not have the problems of the current materials.

I should also mention that there is no reason that a mod/con steam boiler could not be built as well. It would only be applicable on a sealed steam system that operated at a vacuum (and had a vacuum pump to vary the pressure/temperature). It would never be built due to cost; and the cost of the steam system also goes up - but it is quite possible to build it.

I also concede that for single houses and small commercial buildings that hot water heat is more economical to build than steam heat. Baseboard or wall panel is the most energy efficient - and probably resource efficient as well.

Perry

Mad Dog_2

making good sense, Devan

Mad dog

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Mad Dog_2

Thanks for the nice words...but you are way off base Bro.......

When, where, can you find any evidence that Dan does NOT embrace new technology? There is only one Siggy and Only one Dan Holohan. Both have made massive contributions to our industry and its future. Last I checked most of his books are on subjects other than The Steam and most articles on subject other than....Don't fault the man for what he hasn't done, butogive him some credit for doing what he has done...day in and out year after year. How many of us could keep up his literary pace? As ARNOLD, the man who put body-building on THE MAP once said: "....when you are #1 and on top, they will do everything to knock you down a few pegs...they will find little things to pick at.....Why??? becuase they can't do it themselves!!!! And, how do we know Dan doesn't have a book in the works on Solar or Geothermal or Mod-Cons? I believe Dan's greatest gift to the trade has been his uncanny ability to boil down technical mumbo-jumbo and put it plain English for dopes like me. Respectfully, Mad Dog

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Steamhead (in transit)

You might be right, Paul

the style of writing is pretty similar...... might be pretty interesting to compare their IP addresses......

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Mad Dog_2

common sense ala Ron Jr.

you are right, man,. MadDog

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Mad Dog_2

Is it wise to \"look toward the future.....\" when

so many posts on the Wall right now concern folks with PRESENT_DAY steam problems? These people could care less about future technology...they want/need answers NOW about Steam. MadDog

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Steamhead (in transit)

I use spats

When I am pouring molten metal in our foundry for foot protection.

I also used old army leggings as spats when I kept bees to deal with nasty colonies and keep them from stinging my ankles and crawling up my pants.



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gerry gill

all i can say

is steam heating is more than 50% of my income..hot water about 25% and plumbing about 25%..so steam is still relevant in my area anyways..

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bob young

steam work

steam work has always been one the most lucritive areas of my plumbing business. one of the most most enjoyable too. the bigger the better.

Steamhead (in transit)

And I have

some dial phones that were made in the 1930s, and still work perfectly. They were built to last a long time. You can't kill them.

Just like steam systems........

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Leo G_101

WOW!

I now have an understanding of steam heat. Ihave never worked with steam, but now really want too!

Thanx Terry, brilliant!

Leo G

Wayne_29

Perry, can my pet dinosaur

borrow your typewriter? he has to type an essay on people who have so much time on their hands that they feel the need to write dissertations on every post. He wants to use a typewriter for security reasons.

Wayne_29

Vib said it best

It will be a fun way to look at the past and how it doesn't relate to the future!

Mark, If I want to be entertained, I'll take in a Shecky Greene show at the Copa Cabana. Steve Lawerence and Edie Gorme are the opening act. There will probably be jokes about steam! haha

Brad White_191

Perry

"Date: January 11, 2009 10:41 AM
Author: Perry
Subject: Mike & TerryT - You're both Wrong

As a Mechanical Engineer (the kind that studies and implements thermal design); and also one who has spent much of his adult life working with energy systems (steam & Hot water): I can say you are both wrong in your points."

Technical expertise aside, with that kind of tone, can you design a condescending boiler?

Wayne_29

Perry you are putting me to sleep

I hear you can give some sound advice on that too!!!

http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-boards/viewtopic.php?p=8949&highlight=

Will the real Slim Perry, please stand up, please stand up

Tony_23

Now, now

You've changed the focus of the subject. Deflection, while a common tactic, really doesn't settle the debate.

You said radiant is high head, I've shown otherwise. Now you want to compare it to CIBB. Then, you want to make the CIBB 2-pipe.

I've seen LOTS of Bbd systems with 10+ ft hd. That's irrelevant. I'm pointing out your wrong statements about radiant being high head.

Now you're questioning the longetivity of PEX, a product out for over 30 years. I like copper and iron too, but come on.

Are you having buyer's remorse over the V in your basement ? Sounds like 2nd thoughts to me.

One more question. Is your plant on shut-down right now ?

Perry_5

Apples to Apples

This series of debates started about overall energy efficiency.

Overall energy efficiency consist of 3 things in a heating system.

1) The efficiency of the boiler (including its electrical consumption, & other losses).

2) The efficiency of how the heating fluid is transmitted & controlled (pumping losses, control valves, etc).

3) The efficiency of the actual radiators at what temperature (of which the differences are so trivial for the different temperatures encountered in home heating that the pumping losses, control valves, etc can easily overwhelm it).

I stated that in general that radiant floor heat was high head compared to baseboard.

You pointed out (correctly) that monoflow-T's were responsible for much of the head loss in a single pipe monoflow-T system; and that radiant floor didn't have to be high head- and that if designed right it was low head. You then presented the "textbook" case of a radiant heating system with only 5+ Ft of head.

I counterpointed that if designed right that baseboard was so low in head loss to be no comparison.

Apples to apples... The normal best design of radiant heat - textbook; to the normal best design of baseboard.

Now you object.

We both know that there are many systems out there that were not built to be the most efficient out there (not to mention some real kludges) on any technology. Stating that you know of cast iron systems with higher that 10 Ft head is irrelevent to my point. How many radiant systems are there out there operating at 15 or more Ft of head.

My point is that if you are designing from scratch - what is the most efficient system - overall. That it is baseboard or panels because it has the lowest pumping losses.

I have no regrets on the Vitodens. It was the right thing to do for my situation - and I am very glad i did not go with any of the other options.

My plant is not in shutdown.

What do I care about: I care about long term energy consumption and really building green. Really building green involves the most efficient use of our resources (existing and new). Designing and building something that last a long time is often the best way to go. I personally believe that as far as heating systems go - that the basic heating system should be designed to last the life of the house (or building) and allow for modest changes over the years. Yes the boiler will need to be replaced, and any pumps (etc) from time to time. But their is no reason that I see that we can not have highly efficient boilers that do last a long time. Oh - they might cost another $50 or $100 than the ones that don't last.

Have a great day.

Perry

Perry_5

Sleep well... And you really don't know me unless...

I hope you all sleep well at night.

Also, yes I have posted on many a different forum on many subjects over the years. That post is from almost 6 years ago - and I still help people with AutoCPAPs. Even though I am no longer active on some of those forums - I have people contacting me individually on that issue.

But, for those wondering about knowing me - and about how much time it takes for me to post...

You really don't know me until you find my poetry posts. Poetry takes time to write. Try it some time.

Perry

Wayne_29

A Poem for you

There once was a guy named Perry

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Who some thought he was contrary

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

He said with a grin

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

As he wiped off his chin

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

If my zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sorry, I fell asleep

Steven Gronski

I think this pretty much sums up........

The legend of the Past ......