New boiler set up for power outage heating

tim smith

power goes out you would have a relay w/ one set of normally open contacts for normal power and one set of normally closed for battery. Normal power would power the coil of relay so normally open contacts would be closed when power on, then when power disconnects, contacts open removing power from normal line power to regular transformer then closing normally closed with no power and supplying backup power. Easy to do, harder to explain. Simple wire up.

Andy_17

New boiler set up for heating w/ power outage

Just bought a ski house in mid Vermont, the same day there was a major ice storm, No power for 2 days, was able to get a propane heater & run it off & On to keep things from freezing up. But since this house in usually occupied weekends only, is there a heating system that can run w/ power outage,Short of having a standby generator system. Right now It has a 30 yr + oil fire Hot water baseboard system that is in need of replacing.

Mark Custis

If

you want we can install solar radiant with... amdyting is possible.

What do you realy want?

Andy_17

anything possible

Right now, I'd settle for a basic system that would keep it above freezing temp's while vacant

Unknown

Yes there is

You can have a gravity system installed with radiators and A boiler with a milivolt gas valve. As far as I know I believe Burnham still makes them for the Amish. It would be cheaper to install a generator, Home depo sells some nice ones that start and switch automaticly and exercise themselves. They also run on propane so the fuel wont go bad sitting for long durations.

tim smith

Standard atmospheric Burnham series 2 boiler, no vent damper

You cannot have any power vent boilers on this application. Use battery back up system which they make and 12v dc pump. Would need 12vdx24vac transformer to power controls. Batteries would charge when power grid on and then would last for at least several days I think, you could size it this way. Also could set up auto dialer to let you know your on standby. Pretty simple!!

scrook_2

Gas one pipe steam

LP fired boiler w/ a standing pilot millivolt controlled gas valve. No external power req'd. Gravity H/W is also an option, but requires more large pipe

mel rowe

Tim Smith's idea

Never cease to pick up good thoughts on this site. Your idea for a way to keep the heat on during a power outage interested me a lot since there was a recent outage. Thankfully it only lasted a short time, but a backup system to stay warm,without resorting to a very expensive generator,sure sounds like I should check it out. Do you have a recommended source to look for a 12v dc x 24v ac inverter?

Ted Robinson

Lowest cost way to get 24 vac from 12 v

Buy a 115 vac inverter - very common. Then use a common control transformer, 120 vac to 24 vac. But try to find an inverter that makes the ac with close to sinusoidal waveforms. Transformers won't like 'square wave' AC current.

Andy_17

Inverters

These are real good ideas, has anyone seen a automatic switch over, Like a generator transfer switch. This home is unoccupied during the week.
Thanks

tim smith

Here is a simple pure sine wave inverter for application

http://www.powerstream.com/inv-12dc-24vac.htm

Maybe run pump off 12vdc system as they are easy to get and always keep batts on auto charge system. The above inverter is good for any boiler low volt control system as it is 40VA unless you had zone valves etc which might present overload if more than a couple. Many ways to skin this cat.

mel rowe

I have a gas steam boiler. Probably just need to tie the 24vac output from the inverter into the line to the LWCO. This then feeds directly to the double gas valve. Does this sound right? Thanks very much.

Dale

Gas fireplace

If a propane heater kept the place from freezing why not just put in a heater rated gas (propane) fireplace? No AC needed, thermostatically controlled and just a pilot light on when you are not there. Input should be enough to match a space heater.

Henry

ice storm

11 years ago, we had THE major ice storm in the MOntreal region. Most houses in the city were without electricity for 7 days and those outside for 20 plus days. I was a member of the gas supplier committee looking into what can be done to run heating during power outages. At the NTGC, we tried and tested hundreds of ideas from hydrogen cells to solar panels. The ONLY economic and reliable way to heat and be somewhat comfortable, is with at least 12Kw of generator, preferably diesel or natural gas. Diesel generators can run longer between the necessary oil changes. Natural gas generators have less power but have an uninterrupted fuel supply. We had many gas stations and oil distributors that had no power.

Where you are in Vermont there is no natural gas. A propane conversion is too expensive to do and run. At our shooting and hunting club in Hemmingford, we lost power for 23 days. We had a 10 or 14 Kw diesel generator for keeping our oil fired HWT and well pump going as well as the fridge. The two floors were heated by propane fireplaces. Luckly the 250 propane tank was filled just before the holidays!

mel rowe

Henry, I'm not quite sure what you meant when you said the only reliable and economical way was to use a generator. I'm only looking for an effective way to keep my steam boiler running in case of an electrical outage in the winter. It seemed to me that using a 12 v battery and a 12v ac to 24v dc inverter tied into the controls that operate the gas valve was an idea worth pursuing. What are we missing here?

nicholas bonham-carter

co-gen setup

this would be perfect for a diesel generator, which also produces hot water, a good place for co-generation.--nbc

Unknown

Yes they are

included with the generac generator from home depot

mark ransley

A generator and transfer switch doesnt need to be expensive and you had no lights. A 6 circuit panel is about 300, cheap chinese gens 150- 300 and they have good reviews at alt.energy.homepower. I used a 200$ menards unit and tested it, it suprised me that it managed power well.

Craig_8

I've used this in the past

Copy and paste link below

http://www.sumpro.com/sumpro.htm

Customer already had it for their sump pump and they asked me to hook up their new boiler to a cord and plug it into the second outlet on the backup unit. last time I serviced the boiler I asked them how it worked and they said It kept their house warm and basement dry for 2 days, which was when the power came back on. I have no idea how long it would have run before the batteries died. For longer run times it would be fairly easy to wire up additonal pairs of batteries. they must be added in pairs because it is a 24V DC to 120V AC inverter

The boiler was a weil mclain CGa with a Taco 007 pump and standing pilot ignition. I don't know If a spark ignition system will run off of a standard power inverter.



I just noticed you said you have an oil system. If you plan on staying with oil, your only real option is a generator because oil burners take alot of power.

Ron Gillen

Or No Pilot

I was going to suggest this last night. In my home we have a Heat-n-Glo gas fireplace, thermostatically controlled, that will fire on two flashlight batteries. Should be all the feeze protection you would need as they have a variety of sizes.

Henry

A 12 volt battery will not keep you going for long! There is the starting amperage of the burner and pump and then the running amperage. The imported gensets are of poor quality when we tested them. There wave forms were not very good and there was a lot of frequency noise. They can damage electronic equipment.

You could have a propane fireplace direct vent of course, plus a propane powered genset of at least 10Kw. A 250 pound tank will keep you going for at least a week.

tim smith

I think it is atmospheric, no burner motor. Also I would suggest

probably a bank of batteries for backup, probably golf cart batteries which will last a long time at that small load. Tim

nicholas bonham-carter

easy-to-drain

what about repiping the water supply, so that draining it is a 5-minute job,[and putting some anti-freeze in the traps]. then the source of heat could be set to a lower temp, until return, when the co-gen set roars into life.--nbc

Perry_5

Battery Back-ups

I looked into getting an industrial sized Uninterpreted Power Supply (UPS) with sine wave output as a back-up to run my Vitodens 200 and a Taco 007.

When I had appropriately worked out the amount of back-up required for a week I was looking at about a $4000 system that consisted of the industrial sine wave output UPS with additional plug in (daisy chained) battery sets. Note that these are not the systems you find sold in the local office/computer supply store. Also - sizing a UPS for industrial equipment is a lot different than sizing for computer usage (it is assumed that the computer will be idle for periods of time and not need full power).

If you really want a system that works with no power: go for an old style atmospheric boiler with old style thermocouple/gas valve - and build a gravity hot water system.

As far as my back-up. I'm keeping my eyes out for "used" appropriate UPS's (few UPS's really offer full sine wave output).

Perry

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Freewatt

Check it out. It uses a Utica Boiler and a Honda generator. It produces waste heat from the electrical generation, and it will run all by itself. Thanks, Bob GagnonGHDOStAO

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