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New to steam heat, need feedback!
David- Yes, I agree. The upper tee is "bullheaded". I was referring to the lower tee as that was what he marked "C" on the drawing. Sorry I didn't make that more clearer. Late nights with steam fuzzys my brain I guess! :)
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Comments
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New to steam heat, need feedback!
My wife and I recently purchased a large, older (1884) home that has a one-pipe steam system driven by a gas-fired boiler. The house has an interesting history and has been used for a variety of things- it even had a whole other wing that was removed in the late teens. Needless to say, the systems in it are quite old. We even have a whole floor of knob-and-tube wiring (which is now disconnected). When winter began, the local plumbing contractor who had installed the latest boiler for the previous owners in 1999 (utica boiler, net steam 240,100 btu) came out and fired it up- assuring us that all of the banging and hissing was normal for steam heat. Came across HeatingHelp.com shortly thereafter and received We Got Steam Heat for Christmas, which has been so informative. Ive been reading the last several days and am assimilating all of the information, as well as lurking on the forum reading posts and looking at pictures. What Ive learned in general suggests that our system- hissing from most radiators, unevenly heating rooms, taking 45 minutes or more to heat a room, leaving us cold in between heating cycles, and, of course, serenading us with water hammer at the beginning of each cycle- is not healthy. :-) As I begin to make sense of the system, I was hoping that folks on the forum might be willing to provide some feedback on some terminology, some assumptions I am making, and some questions that I have about my system. Im new to all things mechanical, but am trying to learn!
Terminology: Perhaps the most important item in terms of starting with the basics is terminology. Ive got the stuff attached to the boiler (pressuretrol, sight glass, low-water cut-off, etc) down pretty well, and Dans book was so helpful in that respect. What I seem to be having trouble with is pipes! Ive attached some photos of the boiler with associated pipes, labeling specific areas. Im curious if Im getting the terms right. Heres what I think the pipes in the pictures are called: A=take-off, B=risers, C=bullhead tee, D=header, E=equalizer, F=Hartford loop, G=mains, H=part of wet return. Am I even close? :-)
Assumptions: Ive also been making some assumptions about various aspects of my system as Ive been reading the book the last day or two, and would love some feedback on those assumptions. They are: 1. That the use of the bullhead T (or whatever it is called if not that) in the area of the header pipes is incorrect. 2. That the Hartford loop pipe is too low, as the top of the elbow that creates what I am calling the Hartford loop is, in the best of circumstances, about 1 below the water in the sight glass when the boiler is almost full (according to the sight glass). My understanding is that it should be 2-4 below.
Questions: Finally, Ive got three questions right now as I begin to make sense of the system. They are predicated on the understanding that the system is all about air moving out and steam moving in. Main vents, Ive come to understand, are critical in that process. So here are the three questions:
1. I dont seem to have a lot of main vents. One (Gorton #1) is about halfway down a main (which is approximately 60 of 2.5 pipe) that serves 6 radiators, and another is at the end of a main (which is approximately 18 of 2 pipe) that serves 2 radiators. It seems incorrect to me (a newbie!) to have so few main vents, and for one of them to be located in the middle of a pipe- is my thinking on track here?
2. There is another main vent (also Gorton #1) on what appears to be a return line that is elevated for most of its 50 run back to the boiler. This is a 1.25 pipe, and serves as the return for two radiators not located on either of the mains noted above. These radiators are on a main that serves two other radiators, but the pipe that I am calling a return is only connected (not directly to the radiator but to the piping that serves the radiator- pictures will make this point clearer) to those two radiators. This return pipe is actually connected the radiator on the first floor, which, in turn, is connected to the other radiator on the second floor- so, Im calling that two radiators total. At the point near where what I am calling a return pipe heads below the water line, there is this vent. This is hard to explain, so Ive attached two pictures that depict the return line leading to the main vent (labled return that leads to vent- the return is the bottom most pipe that runs from the background of the picture to the foreground) and the main vent itself (labeled Return vent- the pipe is again the bottom most pipe that begins in the background and runs to the foreground of the picture; the vent is in the foreground on top of a riser). I hope this makes some amount of sense. With my limited vocabulary, I may not be explaining things very well! The question is: What is that vent doing there- does that make sense? I thought that vents were on the supply side of the piping, but am also thinking that perhaps air needs to be moved when the condensate returns as well?
3. Related to question two is this point about return piping. I have four such pipes (all seem to be 1.25) in my system- one described above that appears to be a return for two radiators, one that begins at the first main vent described in question 1 (halfway down a 60 main that serves 6 radiators), another connected to a main that serves three radiators, and one final one that branches off of a main that serves two radiators. This is definitely a newbie question, but my impression was that in a one-pipe system the steam and condensate utilize the same piping- so do these kinds of return pipes, which branch off of a main at some point and eventually head to the floor of the basement, make sense? Do they aid in returning condensate to the wet return area of the boiler? Are they called dry returns above the water line and wet returns below? Do all need vents such as the one featured in question 2?
In closing, I also wanted to say how much Ive appreciated Dans books and this online community that has been generated around the issue of steam heat. I noted that Im not mechanically inclined, but its been a real joy to learn about this stuff in the past week or so. I have ordered Lost Art and hope to get into the more technical pieces of truly assessing my system (identifying and measuring radiators, connected load, size and length of pipes, etc). One thing that Im confident about right now is that Ive made about a thousand errors in this REALLY LONG post alone- but I feel equally as confident that the folks on the forum are quite tolerant. So, I want to say thanks in advance; I really appreciate your time and expertise. My dream would be to hire someone to come up here to central NY as a consultant, to let us know what we have and how it all could be improved, but we cant afford that right now- so this will have to do! Thanks again for everything.
David0 -
David
Inside joke but do you know Perry??
You wrote the second longest post in history here! Plenty of information, just teasing.
Quite the setup and I have not had time to digest it all, but that boiler you have has quite the beefy piping.
Too bad that the take-off is between the boiler risers rather than after they combine, but the sizing looks substantial.
Anyway, no comments yet, but I wanted to acknowledge the thoughtful and appreciative post.
There are a good number of excellent steam practitioners in upper and central NY state.0 -
banging and hissing
your 1-pipe steam system can soon be quiet as a mouse, economical, even and fun. here are some things you can learn to do yourself, before spending any money....
1.look at the water in your sight-glass. it should be no darker than weak tea. use a flashlight to examine the meniscus for any traces of oil left over from the installation [even from 1999!].
2.identify your pressuretroll, download its instructions, and learn how to set it as low as it will go [1.5 psi or lower!]. for this you will need a good low pressure gauge [gaugestore.com].
3. examine all your piping from boiler to dry return, looking for openings which once had main vents, but are now plugged. the main vents do most of the air-removal work in the system. radiator vents can wait until after you have corrected the main vents. the vent in the middle of the line may indicate that this is a counterflow system.
4.download the installlation instructions for your boiler and compare the piping you have with the recommended layout. in particular look at diameter, height above the waterline, and general near-boiler piping layout.
at this point you are all eyes and ears, observing and learning your system, before you call in the pros--nbc0 -
Annotations
David,
A "takeoff" is generally the pipes that run from the mains to a radiator, or from the header to the mains. I'm not sure what you call "A" in your photo.
"C" is indeed a bullheaded tee, but it is also part of a takeoff between two risers, which is also not a good thing. It looks like someone could have a lot of fun repiping that boiler...
I'm pretty sure that putting a vent on the return close to the boiler is a good thing. You want vents on each seperate main or return that serves different radiators. A single Gorton #1 might not be enough. There's a really good vent sizing reference for sale here.
You'll get a lot out of the Lost Art book. Good luck!
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ROFLOL.....Brad, You're BAD! 0 -
Hi David-
You seem to be well on your way to understanding steam heat.
I took your pictures and added some notes to them.
1.In Picture Boiler 1 - The Hartford loop is: the risers, the header, the equalizer, the return to the boiler, forming a "loop" (See Note "X"-Orange arrows)
2. The riser from the header to the mains is positioned (as others have mentioned) on the header between the two risers
coming up from the boiler. This is a "No-No as the two steam streams (Yellow Arrows- Note "Y") collide. The risers going from the header to the mains should come off the header downstream from where the two boiler risers join the header.
I'm a bit confused myself as to what exactly a "bullheaded" tee is. I've seen several definitions used on this board. What I was taught is whether a tee is "bullheaded or not depends on the direction of the flow. If the flow dead ends and the two branches have a larger capacity than the supply line then it is a "bullheaded" tee. The disadvantage of the bullheaded tee is that the flow is disturbed when it hits the "dead end" and is deflected into the branches. Using that definition the tee you marked "C" isn't "bullheaded", just it's not properly located on the header.
3. The Blue arrows (note Z) denotes the direction of the pitch (slope) of the header. It should be sloped all the way to where it turns down and enters the equalizer. This is so the condensate (water) formed in the header and from the risers going up to the mains doesn't interfere with the steam flow.
To answer your questions:
Question 1: Main vents - A main is the line to which the
riser leading to each individual radiator connect. It slopes away from the point where the riser from the boiler is connects with it. The idea of the main vent is allow air to escape so that steam can move to the riser branches going to the individual radiators. To achieve this you want the main vent downstream (slope) from where the last radiator riser is attached. I'm not sure what the point was of reducing the size of the main from 2 1/2 to 2 inches. How are the two pipe connected? If a regular rather than an eccentric bell reducer was used to connect these pipes you have the potential for water hammer at this location. having a main vent in the middle mayor may not be of help though you sure need one at the end of each main.
Question 2: Mains can also be vertical and at different levels. Think of a main as supply on one end, sloping to a return on the other end with the radiators branching off in between. Think where the steam has to move and where you need to locate a vent to get the air out of the steam's path. You can have vents on the dry returns in some circumstances, not all situations need them. I'm still trying to figure out your system so I'm not sure how well that answers your question.
I did notice that you appear to have a "counter flow" main (Picture -Boiler 2A)if I read the picture correctly. This is a main which is sloped back towards the boiler where the condensate (water) runs against the flow of the steam. From a design point counter flow piping should be avoided however this isn't always practical. A counter flow main should be "dripped" before it reaches the main riser near the boiler. This drip line is connected direct to the wet return and diverts of the water so as to prevent it running into the main steam flow rising out of the header.
Question 3: Yes dry returns are above the waterline and wet returns below the water line and don't rise again above the waterline on the way to the boiler. You mentioned that you are getting "The Lost Art of Steam Heating". I think a lot more will fall into place for you after you have read it. It goes far more into system design than does "We Got Steam Heat". I think you read them in proper order. I read "Lost Art.." first and it would have been easier to understand after reading by "We Got.." first. I'm not sure how well I've answered your questions. I really need a chalkboard and draw what you described out. Maybe if you could do a sketch it might be easier for us (and yourself) to understand.
Who ever did your boiler installation did a nice job of pipe fitting though I keep thinking if only he had read Dan's books first. In picture "Boiler 2" I drew in a "swinge" riser which is a nice feature as it helps dray the stem. Note "J" refers to the elbow which I think design wise would have been much better to to straight up.
All of what is mentioned is an optimum system. The optimum for you is a system that works well and runs economically. Other than a few design flaws you piping look very well done. What specific problems are you having? You mentioned "noise". What sort and when does it occur in the heat cycle?
- Rod0 -
Bullheaded tee
He does have a bullheaded tee. The lower tee in the header is in the wrong spot between the two risers, and the upper tee is bullheaded.0 -
Thanks Brad
I definitely thought more than twice before posting such a long message- but in the end I figured that it was all rambling around in my head and needed to get out sometime! I appreciate your thoughtful response and look forward to any feedback you might be able to give in the future when you have time.
Thanks again,
David0 -
Thanks Nicholas!
Re: your comments on what the system could be- that's the dream! Right now we're unhappy, but the system is unhealthy. I figure my job is to honor the house (and the person who built the system) by getting it to a healthier place. To that end, thanks so much for the feedback.
1. No traces of oil in the glass that I could see, but the water is quite dark. "Weak tea" makes me think of very light brown, almost transparent water. This water is a bit more brown and not as transparent. Clean-out was in late October by the folks who installed it. I have been purging the low-water cut-off every week, and have noticed that I could purge it every day and get more crud each time. Question: If it were present, how would oil affect the system?
2. Pressure is adjusted correctly, never reads over 2psi. Gauge reads to 30psi; will definitely consider a more sensitive gauge- many thanks for web referral.
3. There are 4 mains on the system. One serves 4 radiators and has the vent on the dry return. Another serves 3 radiators on three floors and has no main vent. A third main serves 6 radiators and has the vent located mid-way on its 60 run. The fourth main serves two radiators and has a vent before it becomes a wet return. The third main (vent mid-way) does have a place on it where a main vent may have been at one point. A picture of this is attached.
4. Manual not available for my exact model (Utica boiler, J-400); called boiler company and they suggested that JC-400 manual would be very similar. Other than problem with steam supply using bullhead tee and height of Hartford loop, piping seems to be correct with respect to location, size of pipe, and height of risers.
Thanks again, Nicholas! Any further feedback is welcome.
David0 -
Thanks fellow David!
David,
Thanks for the referral on the venting book- I'm assuming that's the e-book available for $10? Also, thanks for the terminology help- everything is confusing without knowing what to call it!
David0 -
Hi David - If you get a low pressure gauge you need to keep the original gauge as it is required by code/insurance. Just use a tee and add it alongside the old pressure gauge.
Oil in the boiler- Oil floats to the surface of the water and increases the surface tension. Rather than the steam bubbling through the surface of the boiler water (like a bubbling in a soda pop bottle) it now has to collect together in larger bubbles to force its way through the oily surface. This bubble "explosion" causes water to be flung up into the steam and carried along with the steam resulting in what is know as "wet steam". "Skimming" eliminates the oil from the boiler's water.
Which of your main loops is giving you problems?
- Rod
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2 psi--too high
although it doesn't seem like much, 2 psi is still a bit too high for comfortable, economic operation. unfortunately the pressuretrols supplied with many boiler, don not function reliably at pressures lower than this, so you are stuck for the moment, until you can get a vaporstat.
even more important for the moment is the main air venting-get those in place first, and worry about the near boiler piping afterwards. each vent should be AFTER the last radiator take-off on each line. get good big ones, gorton #2 are favorites here.
here is my suggested order of priorities for the restoration of your system:
1.main venting, if the air cannot get out quickly, the boiler has to fire longer, burning your money!
2.check radiator venting [those vents are more protected from excessive pressure than the mains, and may be functional] also check the pitch of the rads with a level.
3.reduce pressure with a vaporstat to 12 ounces.
4.check near boiler piping for sags or mis-sizing.[ you arelucky to have as much new insulation as you have!
often it's better to make 1 change at a time, so you can see the results. keep in mind that you are returning the system to its ORIGINAL specs.--nbc
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P.S.
p.s. forgot to answer question about oil. try boiling a saucepan of water on the stove,and note the small bubbles of steam escaping. now put a teaspoon of oil in the water and see the difference-more uncontrolled steaming and frothing, spitting, etc. rust in the water is not so bad [and is probably unavoidable]. but oil on the water, like air in the pipes is the obstacle to be overcome!
ever hear of "pouring oil on troubled waters"--rough seas can be somewhat calmned during sea rescues, by spraying oil around the ship. it may also have been mentioned in the bible--nbc0 -
Further thoughts- thanks Rod!
Rod,
First, thanks for making a post that rivaled mine in length. Made me feel better! :-)
On to your points:
1. Ok, so the Hartford loop is the whole assembly of pipes. Thanks- that helps!
2. Thanks for the explanation of why that fitting on the header is incorrect- the flow collides. Very helpful. Also thanks for bullhead tee definition.
3. Re: the slope of the header, are you saying that the header should be higher on one end than the other, sloped down towards the equalizer? I am having trouble picturing how this would work with pipe fittings. Is this what people are talking about when they talk about dropped headers?
Answers to my questions:
1. Are you saying that the mains (which have risers that go to individual radiators- thanks for the definition!) should slope down towards the boiler (higher on the last riser to last radiator, lower on end near boiler)? This is the 1 for 10 with one-pipe steam rule?
As for how the pipes to the mains are sized and connected, the attached picture (Near boiler piping) should make that clear. The picture is taken from what I have been calling the left side of the boiler. At the bottom of the picture is the incorrectly placed take-off from the header, the bullheaded tee above, and then the piping to the four mains visible in the photo (look at me with the terms!)- two mains going off to the left and right, and two headed towards the foreground. The size difference appears to me (without a measuring tool) to be between the mains headed towards the foreground, which appear to be 2.5, and the mains headed to the left and right, which appear to be 2. It would be great to know what you think about it. At this point I dont have the terminology for regular or eccentric reducers to know what that means- but Ill get there!
2. You note that mains can be vertical. If a pipe were to rise vertically between floors, and connect to different radiators on two different floors, would that pipe be considered a main, with the very short horizontal sections of pipe connecting to the radiators considered risers?
What you say about counter flow mains make sense. To complicate matters, this main doesnt appear to fit that description. A photo attached (Counter flow main) depicts that main connecting to the piping depicted in the Near boiler piping photograph on the left side of the picture, rising towards the right side to feed three radiators on three different floors, with what looks to me to be a dry return below that fitting that turns into a wet return (and that is connected, incidentally, to the dry return with a vent that serves two radiators that I have been discussing in other posts).
3. Thanks for the support on the reading order of the books. I am hungering for more. If the post man brings the book today, Ill be a happy guy! As for a diagram, I did do one. I hesitantly attach it here because its idiosyncratic to me and represents my initial attempts to just understand how all of the pipes work as a system. It does NOT represent how they are physically situated, nor does it indicate pipe sizes or connections. The actual physical geometry of the pipes is VERY different, and the distances are not proportional- this was just my way of making sense of what feeds what. In looking it over, it also appears to misrepresent the vent that I have been discussing on the dry return. This is in the lower middle-to-right-hand portion of the diagram- the vent (depicted in the counter flow main photo and discussed in other posts) actually only serves the two radiators listed as 1st floor dining big and 2nd floor cat room. The other radiators served by that main (1st floor hall and 1st floor dining small) are not connected to that dry return but I could not figure out how to depict that on this early, crude diagram. I did depict the dry return as a solid line and used dashed lines to represent wet returns.
4. Re: swinge riser, I think I understand what you are suggesting. Why does this make cleaning the system easier? Also, is this similar to the dropped header idea?
5. Noises: Boiler goes on. 10-20 minutes later, water hammer for about 5 minutes. Then lots of hissing from most radiators- hall radiator is the noisiest. Sometimes water hammer and hissing are coincident. Heat begins 20-30 minutes after boiler first comes on, and boiler fires for about 60-80 minutes each time. Gas bill stinks! I should figure out a way to get an audio file on the web- that would likely help a lot.
Thanks SO much, Rod, for your help. Many thanks.
David0 -
Thanks again!
Nicholas,
Thanks SO much for the step-by-step approach to returning the system to working order. I appreciate the systematic approach. Where is a good place to buy main vents when that time comes? And, eventually, if the budget allows, a vaporstat? Any places online that are good for stuff like that? I looked at vaporstats yesterday when another post mentioned them, and they look quite expensive- and I, of course, have absolutely no idea what brand/model would be best with my system should we ever get to the point where we could afford one. A low pressure gauge is far more attainable.
Question: When you say to check the near boiler piping for sags or mis-sizing, what do you mean and how do those two things affect the system?
Thanks again, so very much. This message board is a wonderful place!
David0 -
Potential problem main
Hi Rod- the water hammer appears to come in the vicinity of the Hall radiator depicted in my diagram. This would seem to indicate that this main is the problem child, though from what I understand the location of water hammer can be deceptive due to the travel of sound waves. The attached picture depicts the connection from that main to the hall radiator. I don't know how these things are supposed to look, so I'm not sure if that piping arrangement could be causing problems.
Thanks again for all of the feedback. I feel like I should be paying you all.
David0 -
Very Similar Circumstances
Hi Dave - Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough questions, and thanks to all for these replies. What's amazing, is that I have nearly the same set of circumstances (1880's Victorian Upstate NY, steam heat, similar boiler, etc), and same set of issues! I was planning on posting today the exact same questions! Pretty cool!
So,I picked up a copy of "Lost Art" at the library a couple weeks ago, and have been going though it. It IS helpful and has spurred my curiosity, but I need to bridge the theory to practical changes. I'm trying one thing at a time, but still feel a little lost. These detailed replies are VERY helpful! Thanks everyone!
Dave - If you want to trade notes on your experiences, i'd be happy to converse with you via e-mail, so we don't crowd the Wall with lots of posts, or I am open to suggestions on communication. It would be good to collaborate.
Cheers,
Jeff0 -
synchronicity
Great idea, thanks!0 -
Continued-
The header is sloped towards the equalizer so that any steam that condenses in the risers or header is drained away towards the equalizer and back to the boiler. If the header was level the pooled water`would be picked up by the steam stream and create "wet steam". This is one of the reasons why it is important to insulate your boiler risers and header as you don't want the steam to overly condense in this part of the system.
Equalizer - Dan says that these should be a minimum of 1 1/2 inch pipe. What the equalizer (Hartford loop) does is to even (equalize)the pressure on the boiler water. With out the loop as pressure built up in the boiler the water level would be forced down. This would result in the dangerous condition of dry firing and possible explosion.
Dropped header is one where the boiler riser are lead higher than the header and then drop down into the header.
This arrangement allows for more length of riser so that the steam is dryer and also prevents condensate from flowing back in the boiler risers.
Answers to questions (cont)
1. NO! Just the opposite! The high point of the main is at the point where the riser from the boiler join it. Think of the riser/main system as a children's slide. You (the steam) climbs up to the top (the main) and slide (as condensate) all the way back to the ground (boiler by way the dry/wet return) Steam is sort of a "Super Hero". As steam it floats along and carries huge amounts of heat. It can go in any direction. and then it changes back (Like Superman changes back to Clark Kent)into water. Water doesn't fly, can't carry huge amounts of heat, and only (slides) flows downhill. I find if one "thinks" their way through a steam system as a molecule of steam and later having changed back to water it helps understand where problems might occur. Ideally in one pipe steam system the condensate and steam go in the same direction as much as possible. steam floats at the top of the pipe and water "slides" at the bottom. If the steam and water's direction oppose each other then it is called a counter flow system.
In some places like the risers from the header to the main this will be a counter flow situation so you need to have at least counter flow slope of these pipes. Flat sections where water might collect can cause water hammer.
2. David, you have to keep in mind that if you were putting in a steam system from scratch you would try to do things Ideally. However since almost all of us are working with older systems with inherited problems we should only address individual problems rather than re engineering the whole system. I think one tends to the re engineering side that when you first get into steam. I know I did. As one of the pros said the other day - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" which I think is a very good philosophy for a steam home owner to adopt. Ideally all mains would have their own riser though in you case I'd just relocate (1)the take off from the header and (2)run separate risers to both sets of mains. As to what benefit you'd get probably item (1)n would give you the most. However since you need to do new piping anyway you should go with (2) at the same time.
I'd get one of the good steam pros to physically look at it first and do what they suggest.
3. Good diagram! You DO have an interesting system! I was wondering what you do with the third floor? We also have 3 floors though we shut the third floor off in the winter to try an save fuel. If you shut down the third floor how does that affect the venting I notice you have Gorton #1s on that floor. Interesting setup on your kitchen line. Is it counterflow back to the vent?
4. Swing risers are swing joints in the riser/header combination coming out of the boiler. Swing joints are made up of multiple elbows which allow movement in the piping, sort of like a universal joint on a car's drive shaft.
Most model boilers are made in cast sections which are then bolted together, like slices of bread in a loaf. If the dual riser piping exiting the boiler is rigid, using tees instead of swing joints, the thermal expansion creates tension between the sections.
5. Not sure what to tell you on the hall radiator. Check the slope with a bubble level .Make sure the inlet valve is fully open. Sometimes raising the radiator a little like 1/2 an inch. (plywood block under each foot) helps eliminate condensate pooling. (Remember the keep the slope!)
Attached is a picture of a drop header. One of the steam pros on here did it. In the future I'm going to try and keep names with photos as they deserve the credit for art work such as this. Not the increase in riser size after exiting the boiler. Nice touch as it slows down the velocity of the steam which helps keep it dry. Note also the swing joints.
- Rod0 -
Thanks again, Rod, for your thoughtful reply.
Re: the slope of the header, dropped or not, how big of a slope are you talking about? It's hard for me to tell in photographs- or even looking at my boiler piping- but it seems like this isn't a dramatic slope?
Re: a dropped header and dry steam, thanks for the explanation.
The questions (continued):
1. So, mains are ideally sloped highest near the boiler and lowest at the end, with a dry/wet return back to the boiler. In situations in which counterlow is being used then the slope would be reversed, yes?
2. Thanks for the input on the near boiler piping. My understanding of what you're suggesting is to relocate the incorrectly situated tee/bullheaded tee combination to the correct location, and, in the process of doing so, branch off two seperate risers to the two sets of mains. Why not four seperate risers, one for each main?
3. Whew! Glad the diagram made sense. On the third floor, the previous owners had put Gorton #1 vents where the radiator would have connected. We haven't changed that, so we have vents in each room up there- though one is in a kneewall attic space, which means that the hot pipe in that space is melting all of snow and producing amazing icicles... but that's another story, and another point where I wonder what the previous owners were thinking. What do you do on your third floor? My wife remarked that it would make sense to have some sort of valve on the second floor to stop heat from making its way into what piping goes up to (and in) the third floor. What do you think? Likely more trouble than it is worth, but seems like a good idea.
On the kitchen, that's a good question about it being counterflow back to the vent. If my above assumptions about pitch are correct, then the answer is yes. Making this more interesting, though, is the arrangement of the piping to make this happen. There is a room in our basement that we call "the pipe room". It's a rat's nest of bad decisions and old modifications. Attached is a photo that depicts the piping in that room. On the upper left of the photo is the main that eventually supplies the kitchen. Directly below that main is the dry return (that quickly leads to a wet return- my diagram does not depict the length of dry return correctly as a solid line). The branch to the right of the photo goes to "2nd floor BDRM#2", the next branch is towards the middle-left of the photo that goes to "2nd floor BATH", and the line continues through a wall across another room to and then up to the kitchen. It is pitched, as can be seen somewhat in the photo, towards the dry return. What I am curious about is how the supply turns downward before branching off to those other places- does that make sense?
5. I'll see what I can do with that hall radiator...
Thanks again for all of your help.
David0 -
Hi David -
On your latest questions:
Slope on the drop header- I haven't come across a formula directly relating to slope in dropheaders but since both the steam and condensate are going the same way, the standard 1 inch in 20 ft should work out fine. On a 5 ft header`length that would be 1/4 inch difference from one end to the other and would visually be barely noticeable.
The main thing is to get the condensate to flow towards the equalizer.
Question 1: Correct! When thinking about steam remember that steam "floats", so it can go up or down and more importantly it does go from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure. Condensate (water) "slides" dowhill! Counterflow is the situation where the steam is traveling against the flow of the water.
Question 2: Four risers would be great, though are they really necessary? It would depend a lot on what the loads (radiators)were on each main
Question 3: We just shut the intake valves on the radiators on to our third floor. In your case it should be easy to do. You don't need a shut off on the second floor, just replace the Gorton #1 vent with a ball valve and then attach the Gorton #1 onto the ball valve. Shutting the valve will stop the air from escaping and therefore the steam won't go to the third floor. If you find a little heat on the third floor might be beneficial, just open the ball valve.
Keep in mind that in shutting off the Gorton #1 on the third floor, you are now putting all the venting "responsibility" on the second floor radiator vent so you might need to increase the venting capacity of this radiator to maintain the same performance.
Since we're getting into vents, here some information on them-
A Gorton "D" has the same venting capacity as a Gorton #1.
A Gorton #2 has 3 times the venting capacity of a Gorton #1/
Gorton Website:
http://www.gorton-valves.com/specify.htm
It's rather limited on info but gives you an idea of the different vents they make.
While I'm thinking of it, here is the Heattimer (Varivalve) website:
http://www.heat-timer.com/literature/VariV056082C.pdf
http://www.pexsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=362&brandid=
The only problem with Varivalve vents is that (to quote Brad, a very sharp guy BTW) "if you have wet steam, they spit like a llama!"
On the Vari-valve brochure they say that a varivalve vents faster than a Gorton # 2. In fact, per Gerry's chart,it is just a little faster than a Gorton #1.
You will want to get Gerry Gills & Steve Pajek's Venting charts. A very useful companion to Dan's books.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-138
You might also want to take a look at Gerry Gill's website.
http://gwgillplumbingandheating.com/
It has a lot of pictures of steam systems they have done. One can learn a lot from studying these pictures. These guys are super steam pros.
You soon find you accumulate a lot of information on steam systems. I've found the best thing to do is get a 3 ring binder from Staples and some 3 hole clear plastic sheet protectors. I keep the boiler manuals and items that I have printed out from the "Wall" in it. It stops things getting misplaced during the 6 month "summer break" I take from steam heating and makes them easy to find in the fall.
On venting and changes. Keep track of the time that it takes for steam to reach the radiators and how long it takes for them to get hot. You might want to track other times also - like how long it takes steam to reach the end of a main etc. When you make a change, having something to compare to is very handy to determine whether the change you have made is beneficial or not. One of the best timing tests is to put a pipe nipple and a ball valve in place of the radiator vent and time just how long it takes to get steam to the vent. Being "wide open" at almost maximum venting capacity this gives you an idea of what is achievable. You can do this by just removing the vent but it is handy to have the ball valve shutoff in place if water starts spitting out. If you do this test, be careful as steam can give you a bad burn.
Sorry for digressing from the "questions". I think of one thing that might be of interest to you and it rolls into another.
I read your description and looked at your photo of the "Piperoom". I think I understand your description but thought it might be easier if I labeled your photo so we then know that we are both discussing the same item. (See attachment) Why don't you attach names to the numbers. That should clarify things and make sure we are both on the same page so to speak.
I can't see that "turning down" would make a lot of difference other than causing turbulence in the condensate and splashing it about.0 -
Thanks again, Rod. Great information in particular on venting; much appreciated. This will be quick as I've got an errand to run. I did want to label the pipes in that photo, though, before fully digesting your post:
A=the main, which enters the room from left to right
B=the dry return, which quickly turns into a wet return just out of frame of the picture on the left
C=the gorton #1 vent
D=branch to "2nd floor BDRM#2"
E=branch to "2nd floor BATH"
F=branch to "1st floor KITCHEN", which goes another 20' or so across another room and then up into the kitchen
The question I had was related to the downturn in the pipe just after the vent ("C"). I was wondering if that downturn made sense. Looking at it, it seemed to me that this wouldn't be an efficient way to get the steam into those branch pipes. Our eventual renovation plans involve getting into that room for a variety of reasons, so I want to start thinking about it intelligently now so that when the time does come (perhaps years from now), I've got a clear idea of what needs to be done.
Thanks again for all of your help.
David0 -
pitch
it's sometimes useful to put a piece of tape on the pipes every 10 ft. or so, and using a level, make an arrow showing the direction of slope. that helped me in my "pipe room" which was even more tangled than yours. i discovered where the hammering started from, when i saw 2 arrows pointing towards each other!
many boiler installation manuals will spec the steam to enter the TOP of a counterflow main. many pros here warn of too much venting on a counterflow, but i have no experience with that situation.--nbc0 -
Hi David-
Okay let's see if I have this right.
1. Per your system diagram is nothing branching off the main from the boiler to the Gorton #1 ( "C" in the piperoom pic.)
2. "D" goes to bedroom #2 and has it's own Gorton #1
3. "E" goes to Second Floor Bath and also has it's own Gorton #1.
4. "F" goes to the First Floor kitchen (no Gorton #1)
5. "F- branch) goes to second Floor Futon Room (no Gorton #1)
I know this is a reiteration of your post, I just wanted to relate it to your diagram.
The first question that comes to mind is how well are the Kitchen's and Futon Room's radiators working? What is the quality of the steam? Do any of the radiators above "spit" water? While the Gorton at "C" does evacuate the air to that point, the Gorton's on "D" and "E" are really doing the work for the misplaced main vent.
While the piping in the pipe room seems a bit wonky (to say the least) I'm not sure what you could do (without going to a lot of work) to improve it. Does the return ("B") have good slope? Since you said the wet return was close by maybe running a drip connect to each of the radiator branches could help as then the condensate wouldn't run through the junction of "A" and "B". Possibly adding a vent on "B" after the junction might be of help. The "If it ain't broke....!" phrase is running about it the back of my mind.
Switching off the Pipe Room subject, which room is you thermostat located in? When the thermostat shuts off (meaning that the room where the thermostat is located is at the requested heat) how is the temperature in the other rooms? Are some too hot and others still cold? Which ones? If you test this out, I'd isolate each room by closing the doors as then you'll get a more reliable reading for each individual room. What you are ideally trying to achieve is for all rooms to reach optimum heat at the same time and in the shortest amount of time.
I think I'd just get to know your system at this point. I'd time how long it would take the beginning of the main's riser to get hot after a cold start. I then used this and "the beginning point- the "B" point)" and then time how long it took from the "B" point to get the end of each main hot. I would then time each radiator individually from the "B" point to when steam first entered the radiator (by feeling the inlet) and then when the vent closed. Also time the cycles and the total time for the thermostat achieve the set heat. (remember to take a reading of the initial temperature first). After doing several multiple readings of your total system, your should have pretty good idea of how it works and in what areas you have shortcomings. Then you can consider what you need / can do to improve the system. The initial timings will then allow you to determine whether your "adjustments" are beneficial by timing the system after each change.
The biggest improvement I can see would be to insulate your steam pipes as this helps get the steam to where you want it to be as quickly as possible. (quick = fuel saving) I don't know if you've read this yet but here's something Dan wrote on insulation:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=42
A lot of steam systems are now devoid of insulation. Usually this has come about by the asbestos insulation being removed and nothing done to replace it. A lot of heating men will tell you that you don't need insulation on steam pipes (Ask me how I know!! "It keeps the basement warm and the heat rises into the house" and in saying this they can probably get away from this time consuming job which neither they like or does the homeowner when he sees the bill for the insulation and especially labor. I'm now a believer in insulation as it made a big difference when I re-insulated my steam system.
- Rod
0 -
Great idea- thanks NBC!0 -
Hey Rod- thanks again for the continued feedback. I mislabeled the picture in my haste; sorry about that!
1. There is a branch before the Gorton vent depicted as "C" in the picture- that branch is about 20ft down the main (10 ft before "C") that serves one radiator ("2nd floor, BDRM #2") and one Gorton #1 ("3rd floor, RM#1") listed in the diagram.
2. "D" serves one radiator ("2nd floor, BATH") and 1 Gorton #1 ("3rd floor, ATTIC").
3. "E" serves 1 radiator ("2nd floor, FUTON RM").
4. "F" serves 1 radiator ("1st floor, KITCHEN").
Many apologies for mislabeling- it's confusing enough as it is!
I think that your comments are still operative, however- the Gorton on "D" is serving to vent that piping, and the radiator vents on "E" and "F" are serving to vent those pipes. No exact measurements, but that's many 10's of feet of pipe on each line, as they extend up floors ("D" and "E") and across rooms ("F"). (The same could be said of the branch before the Gorton #1 labeled "C" in the picture, as the Gorton on the end of that line is also venting all of that piping.)
As for the quality of the steam, what noises I get out of the radiators on this main is a sort of boiling/hissing sound. Usually this is most marked after coming back from nighttime setback. My theory about this, as a newbie, is that this is the time when the boiler is on the longest (to recover from the setback) and so wet steam is making its way up there. No spitting (no water on the walls), but it's definitely a wet hissing sound, if that makes sense. Not just air, but like water is trying to get out of the vents as well. Other than that, they heat ok if given enough time (35-45 minutes).
The question in my mind, which is what I think you are driving at, is where should the vents be in a configuration like that- especially if I want to hook the radiators on the 3rd floor back up and take away those Gortons?
What you address in your next paragraph speaks to this to some extent, and also to some other ideas. You're right- if it ain't broke... though there are some things that could likely be done. You note two possible solutions- drip lines to the wet return (which is only a foot or less to the left edge of the photograph), or venting on the existing dry return. Either way, I have to think that changing something might help the radiators served on that main.
Moving on to your question about levels of heat, the thermostat is located in the room with the "1st floor, HALL" radiator (the main problem child). That room is one of the coldest, which works out ok in my book- at least it's not the other way around! The hottest rooms are "1st floor, SUN RM", "1st floor MUSIC RM", and "2nd floor, BATH". It should be noted that the SUN RM and BATH are more recently renovated and are better insulated. The coldest rooms are the "1st floor, HALL" and "2nd floor, MBDRM" (which stinks getting up in the morning). There's really no rhyme or reason to it all.
Re: timing the steam, that makes a lot of sense and is a great systematic way to approach it. Questions on that timing, however:
1. "Beginning of the main's riser"- I'm taking this to mean the riser from the header, correct?
2. "End of the main"- should this be before any branches, or before the last branch? For example, in the line that we're talking about, the main could be considered 60ft long- 20 ft down the line there is a branch ("2nd floor, BDRM#2"), then the pipe room mess, then another 30 ft down the line it eventually goes up through the floor and into the kitchen. What should I consider to be the end of the line?
3. Measuring the time until the vent closes- silly question, but how do I know when the vent closes?
Thanks for the article on insulation- very helpful.
Rod, thanks again for everything. You've been so helpful.
David0 -
David-
On "timing the system questions":
1. "Beginning of the Main Riser" - This position or something similar was just to detect at what point the system first produces steam. The main thing here is pick a convenient place and to use the same place each time as a "Start point". Maybe getting a cheap candy thermometer and taping it to the bare main might be an idea. I've just done it by "feel" though the thermometer might be more accurate.
2."End of the main" - I was actually referring to the Gorton #1 at position "C" but it could be at any "end of the main" and you should probably time them all.
3."Determining when the vent closes"- Usually you can hear this. Other methods- take up smoking and blow smoke around the vent . If it moves, the vent is still open.
What I use is an "assembly" of 1/8 inch nipple, a tee with a low pressure gauge attached, another nipple, and a ball valve. (I use 1/4 pipe (gauge is 1/4 inch and reducers to attch the nipple and vent.) I remove the vent, replace it with the "assembly" above and then attach the vent to the end of the assembly after the ball valve. When the vent closes you get a "spike" in the gauge reading. The same setup(without the vent allows you to time "maximum venting" for that radiator.
I'm not sure how much is gained at this point by tuning your system as until you get your header / mains straightened out. It's sort of like tuning your engine and wondering about increased performance when you still have a flat tire! Though on the other hand, I guess if the system can be "tweeked" in a crippled situation, when you get the header/riser straightened out, it should really fly.
I still don't have your system completely straight in my head yet. We seem to have 2 sides - the "Pipe Room side" and the "Hallway side. One of the things I noticed is that you have 6 radiators with 4 Gorton #1s vents on the "Pipe room side" and 6 radiators and 2 Gortons #1s vents on the "Hallway side." (One wonders if the Hallway side is a bit "short changed.")
Since the "Pipe room side" seems to be working reasonably satisfactorily and the "Hall Side" seems to have the problems, one of the first items to consider might be to get more venting on the "Hall side". Since you mentioned the MBDRM is cold in the morning, this branch would be the first area I'd address and I would try to add a vent somewhere just after the 1st Floor living room and 2nd Floor MBDRM are connected to their "branch main".
I think doing the timing tests are of great importance to give you a basis to work from. With the bullheaded tee to your mains I'm wondering if you increase the venting on the "Hall side could the "Pipe Room side" suffer and only a timing chart would show this. I think I'd also want to do an open vent test. (remove the vent and see just how long it takes steam to reach the vent hole)and then compare that to your timed tests. As we have been concentrating on the "Piperoom side", I've been wondering what a Gorton #2 (Gorton #2s have 3 times the venting capacity of a Gorton #1) could do in the "C" position though as things seem to be reasonably working on that side, the "Hall side" should probably now get your attention.
- Rod0 -
Thanks again Rod!
On getting the system straight in your head, there are two general sides, each with two mains. "Pipe room side" and "Hall side" are good ways to refer to them, as those are the most recognizable "landmarks" on those systems- the pipe room because it's a mess and the hall radiator because it's the most problematic!
I agree with you that the Hall side seems to be somewhat short changed in the main vent department. When I receive the e-book on venting that I ordered, I'll have a much better idea of how much. In any case, the main that serves the Hall is particularly short changed, as it has 4 of the 6 radiators on that "side" and the Gorton on that line is on the dry return of only two of those radiators- the "1st floor, HALL" and "1st floor, DINING BIG" that are also on that particular main utilize a counterflow return and are not connected to the dry return that services the "1st floor, DINING SMALL" and "2nd floor, CAT RM" radiators. I hope that description also helps to make sense of the system better. In any case, it seems like a vent on that main would help matters.
I should mention that the Hall radiator exhibits a gurgling or "washing machine-like" sound- particularly when coming back from a nighttime setback. It sounds as if water is in there sloshing around like in a washing machine. Today, the vent on that radiator did attempt to spit a little bit as well.
Great thoughts on the venting and timing. I did some timing last night and today (all of my worries about "how to tell" were immediately left behind when I realized that the pipe gets really hot when the steam hits it!), and here's what I came up with. This is with the system configured "as-is"- no removing of vents. That will be next when I have time for it!
I have put the times for each test back to back, seperated with a slash (ex: Test#1/Test#2) for each location.
For Test #1, the beginning temp=62.5 and desired temp=64.
For Test #2, the beginning temp=60 and desired temp=64.
Both tests ended with the temp being 65 when the boiler shut off, which takes into account the 1degree "swing" in my thermostat.
Now, for the times:
Time to steam hitting where risers join with mains= +9/+9 minutes for all 4 mains
Time to particular places on the mains (all locations in basement):
Where living room branches off (end of one of the mains on the "Hall side")=+11/+10
Where 1st floor, DINING RM SMALL branches (end of other main on the "Hall side")=+18/+26
Where dining room big branches=+12/+13
Where Hall branches=+13/+19
Where kitchen branches (end of one of the mains on "pipe room side")=+15/+15
Where line to 2nd floor, BDRM #2 branches from basement=+13/+11
Where 2nd floor, BATH branches=+13/+14
Where 2nd floor, FUTON branches=+13/+14
Where sun branches (end of other main on "pipe room side")=+15/+15
Times to heat at inlet of specific radiators:
SUN RM=+15/+17
BDRM#2=+15/+16
BATH=+15/+17
FUTON RM=+15/+22
KITCHEN=+15/+17
LIV RM=+12/+13
DINING BIG=+13/+14
HALL=+19/+27
DINING SMALL=+23/+30
CAT RM=+27/+32
Time to end of cycle: +60/+76
*Note: I have the "MUSIC RM." radiator offline for the moment because it has been leaking at the joint.
Hope these times are helpful in thinking about the system; I appreciate any feedback you might have.
General question: when I get "Lost Art" and the Venting e-book, will these help me to determine where to locate some additional main vents?
My next project is as NBC suggested, which is to look at the mains' pitch to see which way the condensate is flowing. Some mains on my system are parallel flow (I think I'm using that term right) and some are counterflow.
Hope all is well, and thanks so much again.
David0 -
Hi David -
The "e book" Dan will send to you by email. It has a lot of good info on venting and gives you the figures to calculate the theoretical performance (timewise) of your system. I'd wait until you get the book and then correct your schematic and enter on it the figures you already have as well as the theoretical figures. They also mention doing an open vent test. These figures will then give you an idea of what is achievable and you can then decide on what and where you need to place your main venting.
Here's a good link on venting from Gerry Gill's website. (He and Steve wrote the ebook on venting.) Notice the use of multiple vents and study the installation setups. Using multiple elbows on the vent line helps stop water getting to the vents.
http://gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415
As to determining the position as to where to put main vents -Basically the "standard" location is just after the last radiator on the main. Ideally a main vent should be located back 12 - 15 inches from the end of the main so that condensate traveling down the main isn't deflected in to the vent when the water hits the elbow at the end. However as you can see in pictures of different installations this isn't always practical hence the multiple elbows and slightly remoting the vent away from the end elbow.
There is a post this morning of a nice job done by Steve Gronski.
http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=61870&mc=3#Message433290
He replaced an old counter flow system (no returns).
Note the photos - particularly this one:
http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?IMG0528.jpg&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=36660
Note the drip line to stop the condensate flowing back into the header. (This is really good practice for a counter flow pipe.) Also note the main risers coming off the header pipe at a 45 degree angle. This is also good practice for both the risers and branches going to the radiators coming off the main. In using the 45 degree angle, the condensate flows (slides) back into the header (or main) rather than "dropping in". If the branch pipe is attached to the top of the main pipe, the condensate(water) "drops" through the steam stream traveling the other way and the steam picks up water.
- Rod
0 -
Rod, that Gill website is wonderful for examples of venting. Aside from the cost, is there a reason why more installations do not vent that much? The principle behind it makes sense (attempting to achieve an "open pipe" as much as possible), but I also recall someone saying that overventing can be problematic in certain situations. Any advice?
Re: positioning of main vents, it sounds like in an ideal world those vents (however many of them) would be situated 12-15 inches from the end of the main, which would also be after the last radiator. Given that many mains seem to "terminate", as it were, right AT the last radiator, it seems like putting the vents before the end of the main on a number of elbows, etc, is a compromise?
Re: the photos online, thanks much for the explication- that was really helpful when looking at the pictures. So, drip lines such as those would connect right to the wet return? Also, what would be the decision making process with respect to choosing those 45 degree angles (thanks for that explanation, btw) versus a dropped header?
Once again, thanks! By the way, I received "Lost Art" in the mail yesterday and will be going on a week-long trip starting this morning, so it will be a good time to read. I'm sure I'll have more questions when I'm done! :-)
David0 -
Most(old)systems don't have much in the way of venting probably for two reasons: reliable vents weren't made when the systems were originally installed and since the boilers were coal fired and had constant heat, once the system was vented that was it. With our systems today there is a constant hot /cold cycling so that the air needs to be removed each time the heat cycle starts back up.
Yes the drip lines are connected directly to the wet return.
Also the 45 degree risers takeoffs should be used in conjunction with a dropped header. Drop headers are the way to go. In the case of the picture the installer apparently chose not to so.
Well since you have to break the pipe anyway to install a fitting for a vent, you could break it at the elbow where it turns up to the radiator and install a tee with a extension to a vent. It really all depends on what space and access you have available.
Enjoy the "Lost Art". It's a great book. I find I constantly go back to it to re digest some concept.
Enjoy your trip!
- Rod0
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