Why Viessmann Cost More

Doug_7

The article "What does a Viessmann boiler cost ? . . . " was written by Richard Trethewey, President of RST Inc. of Westwood, Massachusetts.

RST Inc. is the Regional Representative of Viessmann Manufacturing. Richard makes regular appearances on This Old House.

You can download the complete article at: www.advancedcomfortsystems.com/resources/Viessmann-Cost.pdf

Doug

Wayne_29

Finally Explained

What does a Viessmann boiler cost? It depends on when you measure it. Before it’s installed or after it’s been installed and running.
For the homeowner, Viessmann is the best investment in the marketplace for many reasons. You pay more up front to get a lot back in return over time. Generally, an investment is just that way…. the more invested the more returned.
For the heating professional, they get the ability to sell and install the best heating equipment in the world that gets installed without incident or callback.
The boiler is the heart of the heating system. It must pump heat to the building’s radiators or baseboard all through a cold winter. It is an important asset to your home and your comfort. Yet most boiler decisions are made on lowest first cost.
To understand the differences with Viessmann, you should understand the marketplace from where it came. Western Europe and Germany in particular, is an area with a lot of people, no naturally occurring fuel supplies, populations that stay in the same house for generations and homes that are heated by hot water heating (boilers). The governments have all stepped in and forced real energy policies and innovation. The US, is different. Fuel is relatively cheap and perceived to be plentiful; there is no real government energy policy, people move regularly and only 7% of homes use hot water heat.
The boiler market in the US is a completely static (some would say dying) market. The same numbers of boilers have been sold for the last ten years (300,000 units +1- 10%) In a market like this, the only option for manufacturers is to drop price by reducing cost. The result in the US is smaller and smaller boilers using the same sectional boiler designs from the 30’s and 40’s.
The American boiler market today is a lot like the American auto industry was right after the fuel embargo of 1973. In heavy price competition with each other, the best they could come up with was the Chrysler K Car and the Chevy Chevette. These designs were lowest first cost but would fail or were worthless before 100,000 miles were reached. The Europeans, and later the Japanese, came along and offered equipment that was more money up front but would turn 2 or 3 hundred thousand miles and still have resale value. The automobile could be transportation and a good investment. This offshore competition forced the Americans to redesign their product and today they can boast automobiles as good as anyone
So what goes into the Viessmann boilers and why? Viessmann is a world leader in heating technology. They’re annual volume is approximately 6 times larger than the largest US boiler manufacturer. Because of their size and success, they can afford to research and develop products that few others could. They have over 1700 international patents. They have been rated as the best boiler manufacturer by an independent survey of German heating contractors for the last 12 years. Their unique (and patented) Bi-Ferral heat exchanger design is considered the perfect boiler design for a variety of reasons.

Unknown

You have to be a

Viessman salesman.lol Still how do you explain the fact that europe has had outrages fuel cost for years and all they have been able to produce is a cute upscaled version of old technology.I think if American fuel cost were that high you would see major innovation in a short period of time, they have been paying those prices for decades.
Germans tend to overengineer alot of things. Planned obsolesence isnt always a bad thing, we all like to work and if it last to long the customer is stuck with something that is outdated and old. They do this in many fields. Weaponry, aircraft, motorcycles and even though their stuff is good they lack a certain tech that lets others surpass them. Dont get me wrong, my last motorcycle is a Vrod made by Harley but engineered by Porche, I bought it because it is dependable and Harley made it look good but I know it will last longer than I want to keep it. Why? because something new will be out, something better, faster, and more modern. This is even more true with boilers because we are going to see alot of new technologies emerge. So buying into Viessman during this time period, for the price and they are expensive, isnt worth it. My opinion as was yours

Mitch_4

"For the heating professional, they get the ability to sell and install the best heating equipment in the world that gets installed without incident or callback"

UNfortunately, not every installer will do a good job.. And before you clamour abou how they must be certified by veissmann before they can buy one..here is a link to 9 on Ebay...

http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZviessmannQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZR40QQ_mdoZ

To my mind..there are 9 that WILL have callbacks

Some one once said "A poor boiler properly installed will work better than a great boiler poorly installed"

In my area (the entire county) Viessmann sales = 0 units. no one can justify the price difference. I am not saying they are not a good boiler...they are, but here...for 1/2 the price I can install a good American unit, save my customer $$ and they have been happy for years..troble free for 99% of the condensers I install..I am often asked about Viessmann and are they worth the extra..I say nothing bad, tell them I do not install them, they are great, but are they worth $$ is up to them...talk to owners. (problem is they cannot find one)

And incidently the auto history you allude too is incorrect,

heatboy_14

Let me ask you something.

Have you ever actually had your hands on anything manufactured by Viessmann?

Perry_5

That is a lousy explaination - here is a better one

I accept that Viessmann does more research and puts more $ into design than the vast majority of boiler companies in the US.

They also sell a lot more boilers too... Thus, the cost per Unit should be the same... or less.

So lets look at the cost of anything (a Vitodens 200 boiler)

Cost per Unit - R & D

Cost per Unit - Engineering & Design

Cost Per Unit - Materials of construction

Cost Per Unit - Fabrication equipment & Process

Cost Per Unit - Wages and Benefits

Cost Per Unit - Profit

I think the R&D and Engineering & Design - on a per Unit basis - is about the same (since they sell 6 times as many they can spend 6 times as much and still come out even on a cost per Unit basis).

Viessmann tends to use higher priced materials of construction (at least for the condensing boilers). I would add perhaps 10% here.

Fabrication equipment. The Vitodens 200 heat exchange requires an expensive fabrication equipment & process. Add 10%

Wages and Benefits: Germany is an expensive place to build anything. Add 50%

Profit margin. Should be about the same.

An additional factor is the currency exchange rates. While these historically fluctuate - it currently works against the US - add another 30% at this time.

So: To me the reason that a Vitodens 200 boiler is more expensive is that that about 1/4 of the premium price is due to better materials - and more expensive fabrication methods and about 1/2 of the premium due to where they are built, and 1/4 is from currency exchange rates issues.

In my analysis - should Viessmann really want to enter the US marketplace and be very cost effective. I suggest a US manufacturing plant. Note that I do not suggest a 2nd world or 3rd world country as quality control is an important aspect as well. Many companies that outsourced to other countries have found that it has not worked well where quality control is important. This reduces the shipping and currency exchange fluxuations as well - and would result in a boiler that would be sold at about a 20% premium. Something that I think would be very easy to sell.


Oh - and your auto history is incorrect. I don't know a single person who got a Chevy Chevette to last 100,000 miles. 40,000 - 60,000 was the typical range.

The K platform was a reasonably reliable platform. The mini-vans bodies they put on it tended to be reasonable. The car bodies they put on it tended not to be (I believe there was an exception to this).

Perry

1bourbon

isn't this an advertisement?

How much does it cost to post this stuff?

EDIT: OK, now I see that it is plagiarized from Richard Trethewey. Richard ought to be informed that someone is ripping off his intellectual property and posting it here without attribution.

Mitch_4

Perry about the Chevette..

You want a pic of the odometer of mine (yes I still have one and it runs great..434000 km ball park...you CAN"T kill this thing...its my run about fuel sipper

you're statement is correct, cuz you don't know me..but I know lots of folks who got way more...they were the pizza delivery vehicle of choice here...

I agree with your comments better, and it may justify the price premium...I can't find anyone willing to accept it here..times are bad as we are tied to the auto industry as far as jobs are concerned..I can sell high efficiency,the the Viessmann guy closed shop...0 sales for 3 years

Doug_7

Viessmann in North America

Viessmann literature provides a good perspective of Viessmann in North America:

Viessmann have been in Canada since 1979 and in the US since 1989.

Viessmann has a training and distribution center in Warwick, Rhode Island. This base for U.S. operations is fully stocked with parts, inventory and technical support for the entire US market.

Viessmann has a training facility, assembly plant, corporate office and distribution center in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. This 33,000 square foot building is the prototype for all future Viessmann training center buildings worldwide.

It is my understanding that the Canadian Viessmann assembly plant in Waterloo Ontario, assembles boilers from heat exchangers, burners and controls made by Viessmann in Germany, along with gas piping, valves, wiring, etc., purchased in Canada. Complete boilers are tested to comply with various North American requirements and codes.

There is a good article on this at: www.advancedcomfortsystems.com/resources/VI-IS-with-pic.pdf

I am sure that Viessmann does not price their products based on the cost of manufacture. Viessmann makes premium products that are priced based on their value in the marketplace.

Value is something every customer has to make a judgement on.

Doug

JJ_4

Chevette

As long as this keeps going back to automotive comparisons (even tho I don't think it is a very valid metric for comparision):

My father-in-law had a Chevette that went over 200K on the same engine and auto trans....it was still running when the strut (shock?) mounts rusted through!

Counter this with my friend's Audi that had to have the transmission replaced at about 30K (just out of warranty). This, with other repairs, cost him over $14K out of pocket in 3 years...not to mention the time and frustration of constantly having to be towed (the fancy-schmancy traction control system screwed up all the time).

What is interesting is that both replaced with Japanese autos...a Corolla for Dad and an Infiniti for my Bud. Even it this regard...for value I think I would go with the Corolla (which now has about 260K on it)!

Unknown

Yes Sid Harveys sells them

Locally.Honestly I was more impressed with the Triangle tube.

black_gold

advertisement

This is quite an advertisement! After reading this string, I want to rush out and buy a Chevette! While I'm sure there are many Chevettes that have gone more than 100K mi this is a bogus comparison.
Economy cars often die early because they are poorly maintained. How many newer Hyundai's and Kia's do you seet that are neglected and beat up. Often the people who buy economy cars cant or dont take care of them. Cheap cars live a short miserable life - so the boiler to car comparison is just wrong.
Is the Viessmann really that far superior? I think it's hard to say since so much rides on the installation and maintenance of condensing boilers. I steer clear of them for 2 reasons. I don't get along with the local rep, and don't see they payback. Apples for apples I don't believe payback exists. Life expectancy of any condensing boiler is a big unknown right now, and I seriously doubt there is enough fuel savings to justify the huge cost difference. When my customers shop my pricing as hard as they do, it is hard to justify the price difference when we are arguing these unknowns.

CMadatMe

Apple To Apple or Orange to Apple

Weird subj line aye.

Here's the simple difference between Viessmann and everyone else...Viessmann builds complete hydronic control systems not just boilers. I can do multiple jobs with the same piece of equip in a varitey of ways. My heat exhanger of 3-16th's titanium steel is umatched as is my DOT matricx burner on my wall hungs and on my oil..Forget it. My burner blows away the becketts, riellos of the world and you don't need alot of tools to fix me. The technicians that install and service me are factory trained. And most importantly "Like the Maytag Man". I don't break down..

Steve Ebels_3

I've learned

To always offer good, better, best in my quotes. People like options and want to know the difference between brands/models. Payback is not 100% related to initial cost or even efficiency. Many folks are as or even more concerned about reliability of their heating system. My experience with selling a number of brands is that you can't top Viessmann in that category. You'd be surprised at how many customers want the best they can get and also who exactly buys Viessmann. I've walked into places where I wouldn't think the folks would have the funds for a basic iron boiler and walked out with an order for a Vitola. Don't prejudge your customers and don't sell yourself short.

Wayne_29

Are all viessmann installers factory trained?

There's (11) viessmann boilers currently on sale on ebay for the highest bidder. Not the highest bidding factory trained installer. This includes the beloved vitodens, who the purchaser may or may not know about the recall. I'm sure it's a wonderful piece of equipment but if it's installed incorrectly by Joe Ebay homeowner it's a $6000 paperweight...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Viessmann-Vitodens-100-Modulating-Condensing-Gas-Boiler_W0QQitemZ130278082903QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116