My Steam System oddities

Kool Rod

Jerry - I read through your posts going back to January. The first question that comes to mind is : Did you get your near boiler piping properly redone?

If not, this is the first thing you need to address. The near boiler piping is very critical to the efficiency and economic operation of your boiler. It's not just that it is piped in copper, it's just that your piping configuration (in your posted pictures)is completely wrong!! Read over Chapter 4 in "The Lost Art of Steam heating" and see how it applies to your near boiler piping.

"Terry in NJ" kindly attached a photo of how a boiler such as yours should be piped. Since I gather that you have a Pennco boiler (which is almost identical to Terry's)I've included a link to the Penco installation manual.

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/980.pdf

Note the piping diagram on Page 6. This is the factory specifications for your near boiler piping.

Insulation- Just reiterating what others have said earlier. Insulation on the steam piping is a must!!! Anyone who tells you different doesn't know what they are talking about! By having proper insulation you save a lot on your fuel bills.

On the addition - From what I can see you have a fairly large capacity boiler so piping in a hot water zone should be quite viable.

Unfortunately there are a lot of incompetent "knuckle heads" as I believe Dan calls them, in the heating business and the ones that have been apparently been giving you advice so far, don't sound like they are competent enough to change a roll of toilet paper.

What it comes down to is that you've inherited a really screwed up steam system. On the positive side it doesn't seem that it would be all that hard to get it straightened out and I think it would be well worth your while to get a good "steam pro" to look at your system. Go to "Resources" at the top of this page and click on "Find a Professional" and see if there is someone near`you. You might also
tell us your location and ask someone here to contact you.

Now is the time to get you system straightened out before next winter. A good steam system, running properly, is a joy!

- Rod

Jerry Withers

My Steam System oddities

I have been reading my copy of "We got Steam Heat!" and now I have some questions about things that I should find according to the book.

I have 13 radiators total. nine are 1 pipe, and four 2-piped.

I have TRVs on 7 of the 1 pipe radiators, the two closest to the main thermostat do not have them.

My four 2-piped all have air vents, which I am puzzled about because the book states to NEVER let anyone put an air-vent them. I am considering removing the vents and plugging them. Right now I have the air vents closed as much as I can, but I do not think they are really tight.

I am getting steam coming back into the 2-pipe radiators when the main valve is closed so I thought the steam traps may be broken, so I went into the basement and looked for them. I am not able to locate any F&T traps, or main air vents on any of the main lines so I am a bit confused.

The book does not mention hybrid 1 & 2 pipe systems. Is what I have really unusual?

Oh, and natually my close boiler piping is copper...

Overall I have very little water hammer and despite the oddities, the heat is now even with the TRV's, but I keep thinking it could be better.

Brad White_203

Two-Pipe without Traps

The two-pipe radiators you have likely have their returns running express to a below waterline (wet) return which forms the seal purpose that the trap would. Such radiators would have air vents for the same reason a 1-pipe radiator would, to get rid of the air. One would not put a vent on a trapped radiator in practice that I could imagine.

I have seen a few such systems, hybrids, but they are rare enough. One in fact used to be "all two pipe" and the old return lines are evident, capped next to the now one-pipe radiators.

That you are getting steam up the returns- are you sure it is steam or might it be hot condensate? If steam then yes, I suspect the water seal effect is no longer working. It may well be that the current boiler is at an elevation which made what should be a wet return, now to be a dry return.


Start anew by looking at your system in that light, trace things out for us or better yet, post pictures.

Jerry Withers

I am thinking it must be steam because one of these 2-pipe radiators is up on the second floor and it is also heating the room with the main valve closed because the radiator is getting hot on the return side. So, I am thinking there is steam coming up the return pipe. I can not see condensate coming up the return to the second floor like that.

ttekushan_3

You are getting steam up the return pipe.

You have a two pipe with air vent system on the second floor, sounds to me. This was done probably to relieve the supply line of condensate return to prevent water hammer. So treat the second floor system as a two pipe with air vent, which can be hybridized with singe pipe components. But it must NOT be hybridized with typical two-pipe components. There must be no steam traps on a system with radiator vents.

When the vents close on such as system, steam will go through the radiator into the return lines. The key is to keep the boiler pressure as LOW as possible. This will control the amount of steam that gets into the return line of the second floor radiators. Using a Vaporstat instead of the usual pressuretrol is really helpful. Usually 8 ounces or less is all the pressure the system needs.

And this will make it better.

Jerry Withers

I am only home 3 days a week, so I will try to get pictures this weekend.

Jerry Withers

Hm... about the elevation of my boiler. It is on a concrete block the height of cinder blocks. No idea if that was the height for the original boiler.

Like you said, I have to look at the whole thing a bit closer.

Jerry Withers

Here are some pics

Here are some of the pictures I promised, just a bit late.

Jerry Withers

Here are some pictures

Here are some pictures of my boiler and some of the piping.

I was not able to find any main vents anywhere.

As you can see, I inherited copper pipes from the previous owner.

jim s_2

EGADS!

What an abortion that is.

Ted Robinson

Uninsulated steam pipes

Maybe this is not the problem, but wouldn't the system work better with basement steam pipe insulated?

ed wallace

steam system oddities

boiler needs to be repiped nowhere near boiler manufacterers directions water is getting into the mains

Jerry Withers

I plan on insulating the pipes. I had my local heating guy over and he advised against it. He said I would loose to much heat rising from the cellar.

jim s_2

Get another heating guy,you`ll be wasting money on fuel if you don`t insulate.

Terry in NJ

here is a picture of my rebranded dunkirk with a drop header

to help you get an idea of where you need to get.

Jerry Withers

adding heat to a 1,000 square feet adition

I contacted my local heating contractor and asked about piping a hot waster zone off of my steam boiler and they said I would be better off installing a separate gas stove instead. The next contractor wanted to put in a new forced air furnace. Neither one of them had any experience or inclination to want to attempt to pipe a hot water zone off of the stream boiler.

It seems hard to find anyone around here that knows how to do this.

Jerry Withers

Thanks for your reply.

I have not been able to have my near boiler piping re-done for the same reasons I am getting told that a new gas stove would be the way to go. A lot of Knuckleheads around here.

There are no steam professionals near my area. I am in Waterloo, NY in the middle of the Finger Lakes.

As for the size of my boiler, I have the 1608HSID and after measuring the connected radiation I have about a 20,000 BTU overhead. So, I think that the boiler is actually a bit undersized... The house has 4727 square feet, but about 1000 square feet in not heated currently. (There is a forces air furnace for that area, but that is a disaster in itself)

I have been insulating the steam pipes, so that I am at least getting done.

I set up a new site for the house. You can see it at web.me.com/gewithers

Mad Dog_2

you\"ll read about the hybrids here

From those of is that see them on a regular basis. Undoing the bad
"cross-breeding," is what we do. Mad dog

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Steamhead (in transit)

From the looks

of the one rad whose piping I saw (Doxtator Room) it looks like you have what Gordo and I call a "vernacular" Orifice Vapor (a.k.a. Tudor) system. This means a system where a local Vapor practitioner probably bought the various components from whatever supplier he could get them from, and put the thing together almost by the seat of his pants.

The other possibility is that it was originally a one-pipe system and someone added the dry return lines later in an attempt to make it work better.

Regardless, we now know the dry returns need to be vented, and the radiator vents removed and the holes plugged. Then vent the mains properly, repipe the boiler, replace the Pressuretrol with a Vaporstat and let her rip! If needed, we can add orifices to the supply valve unions at the radiators to balance the system.

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shoogeteene

I have 4 Rads that have this same wet return as in the Doxtator room. the 9 others are all 1 pipe.

I ahve not found any vents on my mains in the basement anywhere.

It seems I have quite a bit wrong with my system. It is proving to be a challenge to find someone that can do the work. At this point I am not willing to do these things myself quite just yet.

Steamhead (in transit)

If you wish

you might be able to talk one of us into a road trip......

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shoogeteene

Well, if anyone is passing by Exit 41 on the NYState Thruway feel free to stop by and take a look.