Trouble getting flow up to Garage

Mark Custis

I want you to get your mission accomplished, so post first, drawing and pics and we may see something that will git-r-dun.

Chris H._2

Trouble getting flow up to Garage Radiant

Hello,

I have a boiler with two zones (Basement and Garage) feeding mainfolds to PEX loops in the slabs. The system is mounted on the basement wall with the garage up above that wall. I have a primary loop and a secondary loop. They both have B&G NRF-22 circ's.

I am having trouble getting flow out of the supply line. I can get flow through the return (backwards). Through each of the 4 loops (external pump tieing dirrectly to the manifolds). I have tried many different configurations of valves open/closed and using an external pump feeding glycol/water mix (30%).

I was think that my Honeywell V8043 motorized valve was stuck in the shut position. However, a friend says that he had a similiar problem, then he eventaully did the right combination and it finally started to flow. He closed off the primary loop and let the secondary go, with only on loop off the mainfold open, 15 minutes later he magically had flow. I have tried this a couple times without success.

Are there any tricks out there? I have the ability to hook a hose on both supply and return manifolds.

Thanks - Chris

Rudnae

flow...

If you have one pump for the slabs, basement and garage, and there is no flow in the garage, but you have flow in the basement, and the zone valve works, then you have an air lock. Is this a new system or has it been around for a while? Sometimes air can be tricky to get out a system, typically this is the reason for low/no flow. If it is an older system, and air lock could mean there is a leak in the slab somewhere. The height of the garage has little to do with this problem unless your system pressure is under 15psi, or the garage is 20+ feet up in the air. Height in heating systems is a pressure related issue, not pump. Check your zone valve, if you use the manual lever you should be able to hear the mechanism turn. If it does not, change it, if it does, I'd bet on an air lock. Just my $0.02.

Chris H._2

Rudnae,

It is a new install. Basement is running great. My system pressure is running around 10-12psi. I have had trouble getting it higher. I was going to try to close the valve to the expansion tank to see if that helps get my pressure up.

On the zone valve. I took teh powerhead off and manually closed and opened it. It did not seem broken; however, it did move quite freely. I expected a little resistance.

The garage's highest point (the supply manifold) is approxiamtely 6' higher than the lowest point in the secondary loop.

My bet is the air lock too. I need advice to get rid of it. I have tried soooo many things and nothing seems to work. I feel I may not be patient enough in my attempts. This is my first gig. I need tips...

Thanks - Chris

Rudnae

Okay, here we go...

Please, please please, do not close the valve to the expansion tank, not only is this a bad thing to do, as it will cause your pressure releif valve to blow, but it is asking for major problems. The heated water needs somewhere to go, if not the expansion tank, then the next weakest point on the system. Major bad idea. The boiler feed has an adjustment on it, if you turn one way you increase the other you decrease, however that being said if you are operating @ 12psi that should be sufficient.

The zone valve should offer resistance. They weaken, get easier to move over time, but it shouldn't be "easy" normally that little lever will leave an indent on your thumb from moving it. If you have access to a brand new valve try it out and see if it feels different to you. Unfotunately its hard to describe what that feels like. Check it out. Being a new system though, I would assume its not the zone valve. Beware assumptions though, and check.

Now to properly purge the air out of your garage loops. If you have a good header, you should be able to isolate each loop seperately. Isolate the entire header from the rest of the system. Then close all the loops except one. Hook your hose up to the end of the manifold and run the water, under city pressure or using a transfer pump, and have your discharge hose under water, like in a garbage can, and when you see the bubbles stop coming, the air is gone. Then close that loop off, open the next in the line, and repeat the process. Each time isolating the looop that you just purged. Too many times people purge to an open drain and stop when they don't hear the air anymore. I don't know what air sounds like, but I do know what it looks like . If you try to purge all the lines at once you will typically just chase the air out of one loop just to deposit in another. So make sure that you isolate each loop and then close it before you start on the next.

If any of this seems too complicated or out of your comfort level, do not hesitate to get a heating technician to help you! There is no worse feeling then trying to fix something and causing more damage then benefit. Its nothing to be ashamed of to admit that a certain area of the trade is out of your frame of experience. Everyone needs to start somewhere. Good luck!

Chris H._2

I wasn't too clear

For the expansion tank, I mean't that I would try to close it while everything was off and I was usnig my transfer pump. Just in an effort to increase pressure. However, I agree 10-12 psi should work. I will always have my expansion tank in use while producing heat.

I think I will go get another valve to see what a new one feels like.

I did the purge as you suggested. I ran each loop independently for over 5 mintues each. I was using the tranfer pump, pulling from my glycol/water mix and having the return dump back into the mix. I ran until (plus a couple minutes) I no longer saw bubles coming thorugh the pex (I can see the bubbles if I put a light behind the tubes as they go into the manifold).

However, that effort did little to fill my supply line. That is the line that I need to fill. I can site there with the supply mainfold purge vavle wide open and nothing more than a few drops come out (assuming I have the loops closed, otherwise, they will run in reverse).

I have one idea:

1) With evertything off, except my transfer pump hooked to a boiler drain, open one loop and the purge value on the end of the supply mainfold. Then partially open one loop and let it slowly fill the supply line as the air escapes out the supply manifold purge line.

I have all the confidence in the world. Two of my good freinds are steam fitters. They are stumped. I am stumped. Any other thoughts...

Thanks - Chris

Mark Custis

Is there an air eliminator or micro bubbler in the system?

Chris, your one idea may work, but I would go fast, not slow. You want your solution to bring the air with it. If that does not work find the high spot in the piping and add an air vent.

Chris H._2

Spirovent

Mark,

I have a Spirovent on the secondary loop, right before the circ.

The reason I was going to go slow is that I would be filling the supply line in reverse from the return. So, I would want the water trickling in and displacing the air which would could come back out the supply manifold purge valve. Once I felt the supply line was full. I would close the purge valve and hopefully everything would be in balance and flow would commence.

I can't get flow to go forward through supply, even when open to the atmosphere... The supply mainfold purge valve is at the high spot and it can vent air.

Thanks - Chris

Mark Custis

OK

We use a swimming pool pump set up to handle garden hoses. Try pumping from your manifold boiler drains back to the spirovent with the floor loops closed.

You could close the loops and tie the manifolds together with a hose and pump that with the ciculator for a while and see what happens.

Having in my youth spent hours burping air out of systems I design/build with air elimination in mind. Once you get the big air out the micro-bubbler should take care of the rest.

I usually install backflow perventers, then pressure reducing valves, with ball valves on each side. I can then bump the loop presure higher if needed. A bit of water will not substantually increase my chance of freezing and its easier that dragging out the pump,buckets and hoses. When I am happy I turn off the incoming water so that if the slippery glycol finds away out I do not have to blow off what is in the loops and start over.

Chris H._2

Mark,

I have tried that too. Closed all loops and hooked the transfer pump to pump from supply manifold to return. From the noise it was making, it was apparent that it was dry.

It drives me crazy.

I did stop by the supply house over lunch and picked up an extra valve, just incase that little ball somehow came off its stem and is keeping the supply line closed. I doubt it, but at least I am ready.

Before I touch the valve I will try my idea and certainly do yours and other options - one more time!

If you have any other thoughts that you aquired in your youth, please share.

Thanks - Chris

Mark Custis

Off to run errands

Chris:

Can you draw, or take pictures of what you have?

I'll look when I get back.

Chris H._2

Sketchless

I have a good sketch that I used while constructing. However, it is at home. I will scan it and take a couple pics.

Wish me luck tonight. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

I appreciate the help!

Thanks - Chris

Rich L.

Pictures?

Do you have any pictures of what you've done Chris? Can you take some and post them?

Chris H._2

I will take them tonight and post them. Thanks

Chris H._2

Mission Accomplished! - Almost

Folks,

My buddy stopped by last night and we tried this, tried that and then came back again to that supply line. We hooked one tranfer pump pushing and one on the other end, pulling. Still no flow. We knew the supply had to be blocked. So, we took pressure off the system and took the guts out of the zone valve. Hooked up CO2 to the suppply manifold to see if it would flow out of the open valve.

I had my face nice and close to hear the gas coming through. My friend in the garage says he is building pressure, then wham! The blockage moved and pushed a significant amount of glycol/water out on me and my basement. That was fun. The blockage ended up being a rubber plug!

I had used some scrap Type-L pipe. Apparently I had left the plug in-place. Can you say Rookie mistake! All the hours lost on that ooops! Anyway, broke out the torch pulled the supply apart. No more plug.

It was late (2am). I still had to mop up my mess and hook-up the clothes washer hoses (I borrowed them for the second pump). So we got evertthing re-sweated, but I still need to fill.

I cannot imagine anything else giving us trouble after going through that (finger crossed - knocking on wood).

Thanks for all the help! Much Appreciated!

Have a Happy new Year - Chris

P.S. I did take some pictures before the carnage. I forgot the memory card, but I could post later if anyone is interested.

Mark Custis

Not a rookie mistake

I love it when a plan comes together.

I would like to see the pictures.

Rich L.

I love it! LOL

That's hilarious Chris! Thanks for sharing. You just made my day! That's not the first time I've heard of somebody doing that. Luckily I haven't done that one but there were plenty of others way back when...

I hope it all works ok now for you now too, let us know. I'd still like to see the pictures also. Happy New Year to you too. Rich L.

Chris H._2

Pics

My wife was kind enough to take them off the card and send them to me (she was smart and took the day off).

I have other angles, but this should tell the story. The garage pipes go up to celing and then over to the left and out to the garage.

It has been a fun and challenging project. I just wish that I had done snowmelt!

Enjoy! - Chris

mikea23

Looks like alot of pipe for that circ i would check the numbers.

Mark Custis

Well done

Let her heat a while and see what happens.

You can add snow melt still.

Mark Eatherton

That reminds me of a story...

Many years, working for Dave Strong of Radiant Floors, we did a job for a semi DIYer, who was hiring out the work she was not qualified to do, including plumbing and heating.

When it came time to do the flue, the plumber had run his hot and cold water lines DIRECTLY across the small area we were required to put our B vent in to. We cut his lines, and installed our B vent. I asked my guys to re-connect, and offset his water lines, but they didn't get to it before we left the job.

Fast forward 3 months. Consumer calls and complains that she has no heat in her bedroom. Send crew #1 up, they can get water to flow backwards through the zone, but not forwards.

Send crew # 2 up with a larger pump, and they run in to the same thing.

I finally go up, and try the same thing (system had glycol in it) and get the same results. System was fairly simple. Boiler, 1 pump and 4 zone valves.

I finally break down and unsolder the zone valve serving the bedroom and find that the plumber had unsoldered our pipes and dropped the small rubber insert that came in the end of his water heater gas valve in to our pipe...

So, I removed said blockage, refilled the system, and everything was working great.

I then took the door off of his stand alone water heater, and reach as far inside the heater as I could with a pair of channel lock pliers, and pinched the pilot tube shut on his water heater...

A year later, the H.O. called me and asked me to do a public speaking engagement for a non profit college, and her topic was "DIY home building".

I agreed to do so. As she was speaking about how to avoid pitfalls, she told the story of her poor plumber, whom she had to call out because she had no hot water after she moved in.

He replaced the thermocouple, to no avail.

He replaced the gas valve, to no avail.

He finally had to completely replace the whole water heater to get her hot water. On a SATURDAY to boot.

After the seminar, I pulled her to the side and told her the REST of the story. She laughed so hard I thought she was going to cry.

Mess with the Bull, and you will get the HORN....

ME

Mark Custis

LOL ME

We have to keep this kids going.

ps. your bad

Chris H._2

Funny Stuff!

LOL - That is good (errr bad)!

My buddy that helped me has the saying...

"The F#&(in' you got ain't the F#&(in' you're going to get!"

I think that plumber got it!

BTW, the system has been up all weekend on autopilot. I actually got to enjoy the benefits. I had to do a little work on my truck. It was SO nice having warm feet and warm tools.

Thanks - Chris