Steam Rad addtional problem continued

Brad White_191

That depends on a lot of things- If the piping has long X-Y legs, allowing for greater flexion with less stress, it can go for years but this then adds stress to the elbow which connects them (think leverage).

If the legs (segments of pipe) are short and with lots of fittings, stresses are compounded. If the pipe is uninsulated, the stresses are greater because the temperature extremes are greater or allowed to be.

You can see it is not a question of "if", but of "when".


Take a piece of copper in your hand. Bend it a little at a time, back and forth, and see what happens.

Copper as a metal "work-hardens". Bent back and forth, the stresses build up as the metal hardens and the metal breaks down. Annealing it, (heating it above it's first critical temperature but which is higher than steam temperatures), then allowing it to cool, will leave it dead-soft.

tanya_2

Steam rad additional problem

"According to the book I shouldn't have air vents since I have a two pipe system. Only 2 of the 9 rads have them and I do not see any in the basement on the main lines. I'm getting condensate and steam out of the supply line(?) on the rads w/the vents. How do I stop this? "

Thanks for the feedback Nicholas. One thing I've learned with this house is that things are not as they appear. I'll look up the vapor system. I have not checked for traps but if I understood the book correctly they are in the elbow joint going into the floor. I just rechecked the pressure and it is up. It's at 6. I haven't touched it so now I'm more curious about what's going on with my system.
I would love to get it back as close to original as possible. Getting there is the task.

Brad White_191

Chiming In

I do not specifically recall the earlier posting, but many vapor systems do have air vents (and no traps). The returns went directly to a wet return (below the waterline), individually.

If you are getting condensate out of the radiators with vents, start with a suspicion of wet steam. Begin with the near boiler piping as a root cause (not the only one but where the problem can be manufactured wholesale). Then go to insulation or lack thereof on piping. More to it, just a few thoughts.

nicholas bonham-carter

high pressure

check your pressuretrol, especially the "pigtail";which may have become blocked with debris, preventing the p-trol from seeing the pressure. 6 psi is much too high, and could shortly prevent your vents from working, and make them into paperweights. having a good low-pressure gauge on the same mounting as the pressure control, is essential. the other 30 psi gauge must stay for code requirements, but it's almost useless.[ "like timing a race with a calendar", as brad white has said.--nbc

tell us if you see any maker's name on such things as radiator valves or traps etc. will help to identify your system and get it back to original specs.--nbc

tanya_2

psi an

tanya_2

psi and identifying marks

How would I know it's blocked? See close up of Cut In. sorry it's blurry. I can't just adjust the screw on top?
I really appreciate the help.
The only markings on the rad is the name H.B. Smith Company, the circle with a triangle and a circle with a "H" inside on the supply line.

Brad - the pipes are not insulated. That's also on my to do list.

nicholas bonham-carter

pressuretrol

the screw at the top looks like it will adjust the lower end of the pressure, below which the boiler "cuts in", and there will be an interior wheel to adjust the upper limit. however the safest would be to get the mfg's numbers off the interior, and get specifics from the honeywell website. set it as low as possible-under 1 psi. would be best.

it looks like you have copper mains, which many here believe will fail, in a short period of time; so whether that is true or not, you could insulate them with regular foil-backed fiberglass rolls of insulation. the insulation is relatively inexpensive, and can easily be removed when you re-pipe. some form of insulation should be on those pipes soon!--nbc

tanya_2

pressuretrol

thanks, Nicholas & Brad.
Will check out the Honeywell site. They did not leave me the manual.
Yes, copper piping. I was told the previous owners had the piping redone when they had the boiler installed 4 years ago. I received Dan's books right before Christmas and freaked when I read that about the pipes. I have insulating on the January schedule. Is there anything besides the fiberglass I can use? what about the pre slit foam?
I have not been in the house a year and I've found so many surprises.
thanks - again.

Unknown

What exactly was the problem again that you are having with your steam system?

It might be an idea to post some more pictures of your near boiler piping from different angles as from what I can see there maybe some configuration problems there which could cause wet steam. As was already mentioned, copper piping on the steam side is definitely a "No-No".

Also you might want post the make and model of your boiler as that might be of help.

tanya_2

the original problem

Hi Rod,

I wish someone would have informed the previous owner of all the no-nos
Beginning of Novemeber, I started to have severe water hammer and the vent on the living room rad started to hiss & whistle. The only bedroom rad with a vent was not heating completely and the room was like an icebox. None of this was happening last March so I started to investigate.
First I purged some water from the boiler. It was very rusty. That calmed the water hammer. Then the supply's started steaming and spitting water so I ordered Dan's books. Learned a few important things.
I changed the air vents last Saturday.
Do the picture help?

Steamhead (in transit)

Dear Tanlow

What you appear to have is a species of orifice vapor heating. You should have installed on your dry return(s) lots of venting. Big vents. The radiators should not have those little vents. Remove and plug them off once you get your main vents installed.

Next, have a vaporstat installed and run your system at a ridiculously low pressure. Get a low pressure gauge on your system to see just how low.

Have a real steam pro look at your system.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

tanya_2

finding a real pro

Dear Gordo,

Thanks for the advice. I used the search and only one company comes up. I haven't called them yet but I would like more options. I've been burned by an electrical contractor so I am overly cautious now.
I'm in Pennsylvania west of Philadelphia.

Unknown

Looking at your "gasboilerback" picture, I think you have some pretty serious issues with your near boiler piping.

It's great that you have Dan's books as he explains it all in much better terms than most of us could.
Take a look in "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" at the diagrams on page 51 and on page 55. On Page 51 the diagram on the right at the bottom of the page is comparable with your system as it the one on the same page on the upper left.

On page 55 the diagram at the bottom of the page is a bullheaded tee comparable to the one on your system. Read this page on bullheaded tees and you will then understand why you have problems with "spitting water".

While we talking about bullheaded tees you might want to check the piping above the boiler (we can't see it in the pictures) and make sure there are no bullheaded tee connections there.

Now for the good news! From what I can see it shouldn't be too hard to repipe the plumbing around your boiler. Have you experience doing pipe work?

tanya_2

bullheads

I see what you are talking about but I have no experience doing pipework. I would get someone else to do it.
Here are a few more pics.

thanks for all the feedback.

David Nadle

Tee

I think what he's got there is not a bullheaded tee, but takeoffs between the risers. A bullheaded tee is when the steam enters the "bull" opening.

Steamhead (in transit)

That looks like an Orifice Vapor system

There should be air vents on the steam mains AND the returns, and a Vaporstat to keep the pressure low. And no vents on the radiators at all.

And that near-boiler piping is a mess.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

David-
Yes, the "take off between the risers" was the first item I was referring to on page 51 of Dan's book. The bull headed tee I was referring to is the tee on the end of the header, with a riser going up and the equalizer pipe going down going down. I was also just wondering if any pipes we couldn't see in the picture might be bullheaded though I see by the new pictures they look okay.

- Rod

Unknown

Tanlaw-

Don't know how long you've been in this site. Just thought I'd mention that both Gordo and Steamhead are steam "heavies" so if they proclaim your system an "orifice vapor" that is most likely what it is. From everything I've read it's a very nice system and you get a few things straightened out I'm sure you'll be very happy with it.

Probably one of the first things you want to do is go over the manufacturer's installation instructions. From what I can see in the pictures, your piping above the boiler looks okay.

What make and model is your boiler?

tanya_2

make and model

thanks Rod.
I'll have to look up Orifice vapor systems. That's great to know about Gordo and Steamhead. Thanks, guys. I've only posted one other time and I lurk now and again.

I have a gas boiler from Dunkirk model PVSB-6D. The house is 94 years old with only 6 owners. For the most part the bones are great but it needs a lot of work.

Unknown

Tanlaw-
The following are publications on the Dunkirk PVSB boiler
just in case you don't have them.

Note - Page 6 in the I&O manual. This is generally what your piping should look like. Note especially the measurements and pipe sizings. There are a few things that can be further optimized, like a drop header.

I've found it really handy to get a 3 ring binder from Staples and also some clear plastic 3 hole sheet protectors.
I file all my boiler info in these as well as items from the "Wall" which I print out and save. Keeps everything together over the summer so you can find them in the fall.

- Rod

Brochure

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/1633.pdf

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/426.pdf

I&O Manual

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/397.pdf

Brad White_191

Insulation

Moulded fiberglass is really the only practical material. Foam, with very few exceptions, is not made for steam temperatures.

Remember the Wicked Witch of the West from "The Wizard of Oz"? "I'm melting!!!"

My only caution (I am not a Casandra, but rather seek to illustrate what is possible to occur) is that insulating the copper will mask any joint separation -for a few days anyway!- It also may waste your insulation efforts if you decide to re-pipe it properly in black iron pipe.

Don't freak out. Collectively we can guide you to where you want to be.

tanya_2

Insulation

I definitely don't want a meltdown either kind :)I'm calm. Any idea of the approx. life span of copper piping with steam?
Thanks for the advice.

I hope to redo all the backward issues but you know how priorities are constantly changing. Right now finding a job and fixing the leaking roof have my attention.

tanya_2

Copper Lifespan

Understood, Brad. Thank you for the insight. Now if I can find a pro in my area.
The King of Prussia night class is sold out you would think there would be more pro's advertising on the website.

tanya_2

no Heat

Everything happens for a reason. I came home today to no heat. I've pulled out the home warranty and called for service.
The thermostat is set at 68 but the temp reads 62.
I have gas but the pilot doesn't appear to be lit. Attempts to reignite failed.
Anything I need to make sure I ask or tell the technician?