What would you do?

J Heritage

Leaning the home never seems to help. Everyone has there homes financed out. Always way to far down the list. I almost think thay did not have any more money and did what they needed to do to get heat reguardless of who the hurt. Wife oridginally approved then the husband took over to oridginally decline all payment. I feel lucky to get what I did. That is if the check dosent bounce

J Heritage

When you quote a customer on a pipe repair and they approve to do it. Then after the work is complete they say they do not think it is worth that much and will only pay less than 1/2 of what was quoted. Do you just take what you can get and never do work for them again?

oil-2-4-6-gas

was this verbal and a handshake or written,signed contract ---there is a lot more to this story

J Heritage

Verbal only. It looked as if the copper baseboard pipe froze and split. they put calk on it to try and stop the leak. It needed to be repaired immediately to keep the heat operating.

bob young

deadbeats

take what you can & run. not worth getting arrested for . small claims court could work if its worth your while. tough situation. back in the day , it was louieville slugger time. no more.

Mark Custis

Yes

Then lein the building.

I am more carefull as I age. I know what I do, and I can go broke sitting at Home.

I stole the last from Bob Goff, Sr, thanks Bob.

Mark Custis

John

Give it as a gift.

Then hug your kids and yourself.

Do not let this minor event stay you from your cause.

Tom_53

I recently heard the result of the same situation.
Nothing in writing. The customer also had nothing in writing. The charge was $2000 customer would only pay $700.The contractor took him to court along with estimates from other local companys to show that his price was average, Judge ruled in his favor.
From Tom

Mark Eatherton

Fire them...

Take the money and run. And get over it.

The more you dwell on it, the more it grates on you , the worse it affects you and your family life.

Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's ALL small stuff...

In the future (not with these people) if they balk at your price, offer terms. Half now, half in 2 weeks.

NEXT

ME

J Heritage

I agree it is best to let it go. But it is also nice to vent here were we have all gone through simmilar things.

Thanks to all replys

Mark Eatherton

Didn't mean to cut you short...

Just being blunt. Sorry 'bout that.

You can come here to vent any time you want. We all do.

ME

ttekushan_3

would that make it

a direct vent?

ANYway, this sort of thing happened last year. I gave them terms that went into summer when they could recover from heating bills and kept it positive. Sort of a "we're all in this together" thing. I figured that recovering direct costs would be the best I could do. I got paid in full. Sometimes it works out depending on the client.

Timco

Here in UT the courts are online and you can make out & print small claims lawsuits for free, you just pay if you file. I would print it out and serve it official like in person. Worth the 10 min to draft it and a drive over to their place...

Tim

Erich_3

Get It in Writing

In the future you need to get this in writing. You can use a preprinted multi-copy form with a space for the actual work to be performed. Have the customer sign the form and initial the part where you have written in the work to be done. Make sure the form has the applicable legal language for your state. This eliminates any he said she said arguments.

Mark Eatherton

In the eyes of the court system....

If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist.

Lesson learned. Get it in writing with their signature on it, and don't let them hold on to the contract while you are doing the work.

Just curious, was the MAN of the house a lawyer or a C.P.A.?

Those two give me more fits than anyone, for some reason.


ME

Bob Burnham

Take it to your local newspaper

Below is an article printed in a newspaper because a homeowner complained about price. Why can't you turn the tables? Cheaper than the Court System and if it worked it would help Contractors everywhere.


They cried Wolfe in an emergency
And they wish they hadn't

September 03, 2006

As consumers, we're most vulnerable when we're desperate. After all, who has time to shop around when the toilet overflows or the furnace conks out?

Exploiting such desperation is called price gouging. From what I hear, Wolfe Plumbing, Heating and Air Conditioning, based in Montgomery, is doing just that.

For the record, this is not the 62-year-old C.R. Wolfe Heating Corp. on East Main Street in Middletown, which does heating and air conditioning, but not plumbing. "If you don't 'see our C.R.,' you must have the wrong Wolfe," quips Cathy Wolfe, whose grandfather, Charles, founded the company.

It was certainly not C.R. Wolfe that Nancy Layne of Newburgh called in December when her furnace failed during a snowstorm. She called Wolfe of Montgomery, which also lists phone numbers in Middletown, Newburgh and Warwick.

"I figured that such a big company would be reputable," Layne told me.

Wolfe sent a technician, who told Layne that repairing her 11-year-old furnace would cost $1,221.

But, wait — he couldn't get the parts for three to five days. How about a brand-new furnace for $3,200? "Didn't sound like much of a choice," Layne told me, "especially in the middle of a snowstorm."

Layne paid the Wolfe repairman a $74.62 service fee and sent him away.

Then she called Classic Plumbing/Heating and Air Conditioning, a small company whose owner checked the furnace and found only a disconnected thermostat wire, which he quickly reattached. Layne paid him $81.09 and she hasn't had a problem since.

"I was lucky," she told me. "But I wonder how many people go ahead with a $3,200 expense because they have no way of knowing if it is the truth."

In January, I heard a similar tale from Sylvia Panetta, who called Wolfe of Montgomery in December for an estimate to change a kitchen faucet and replace two shut-off valves in her Middletown home. She was told they don't give estimates over the phone, but for $69 plus tax, a technician would come out and take a look.

"I was desperate," Panetta recalled. "It was Friday. I have animals and they must have water. I have medical problems and take medication."

A Wolfe technician came to Panetta's home, peered under the sink and told Panetta the job would cost $1,100.

"Once I got over the shock that he was serious, I told him the amount was absurd," Panetta recalled. She paid for the service call and called another plumber, who did it for $125.

I contacted Wolfe with these complaints last winter and received a three-page, single-spaced letter from owner Ed Wolfe, saying he had issued refunds to both Layne and Panetta, adding that "we regard customer satisfaction as our highest priority.

"We "¦ consistently provide real comprehensive 24-hour a day/7 day a week service," Wolfe wrote. "This can lead to our prices being higher than some others in the business."

OK, I thought. Maybe. I contacted the Orange County Department of Consumer Affairs and requested copies of complaints they'd received about Wolfe. They sent me a couple dozen, most of which had the same gripe — price gouging — and demanded refunds of the service fee. Most were marked "resolved," although I have no way of verifying this, since the consumers' names were blacked out.

Then I got more complaints. Diana Leone of Middletown got a $734 estimate from Wolfe to repair her toilet. She said no; another plumber fixed it for $118. Jane Savage of the Town of Newburgh called Wolfe to unclog her basement pipes, got an estimate for $831 and instead hired Roto-Rooter, who did it for $225.

"That's, like, criminal, to be that far out of the ballpark," Savage said.

I agreed and called Ed Wolfe.

"I've gotten too many complaints to ignore this," I told him, citing examples. "Too many complaints that are exactly the same — way-out-of-the-ballpark estimates. Then, when people balk, they get nailed for a hundred bucks anyway."

Wolfe said his fees are "based on a reference book called 'The National Standard Pricing Guide,' which is a widely used in our industry for pricing."

This is not exactly true. The National Standard Pricing Guide is actually a fill-in-the-blank software program enabling small-business owners to create their own price books. The owner fills in the fees, then prints out the books for technicians to bring on jobs.

Wolfe insists his pricing "is as fair as we can be." In my book, it isn't fair at all.

Mad Dog_2

depends how bad you need the money.......

I have done both: I have torn up the check and said keep it...and I have taken what I could and NEVER worked for them again...you would think after an incident like that, a person would not have the audacity to call again....but they do....no shame! In the past, my hot Irish Temper prevailed. These days, with a great office manager like Pam from PK Services (listed here at Find a Professional) I let her handle and deal with deadbeats like that. Mad Dog

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Empire_2

It's called theaft of services:

Another scenario: during a snow storm a customer calls 4 companies because he has no heat. After talking to the customer, (all 4 companies) they all show up to service the customers complaint. The customer would only pay the first one there. Verbal is a document in principal, that is why the 4 companies responded. The remaimimg 3 billed a service charge, and eventually got paid. True story.

Mike T.

klaus

Been stiffed too

That is so frustrating John. It happens to us every now and then too. We attempt to collect but then if no luck, write it off as bad debt.

I have a friend that has his own concrete business. After getting offered just $500 payment for a large patio he poured, originally agreed at over $2000, he refused the partial payment. The homeowner said "what are you going to do repo it?" and laughed. My friend did just that. He went back over a few days later with his jack hammer and broke up the entire slab. The home owner came out during the process and outraged asked if he was really going to take it all back. He said nope, just breaking it all up, leaving it for you to get rid of! It was more work for my friend but he told me there was some great satisfaction in breaking that slab up.

I chuckle everytime I think of that story, what must have been going through the H.O.'s mind as the jackhammering was going on!!!

Maybe you could repo your pipe and fittings? Realistically not possible, and better I'm sure to take the high road, but does kinda put a smile on one's face...

Brad White_203

I kind of like

the old chimney mason's trick. Mortar in a sheet of glass halfway down. The Owner is told to pay upon completion and certainly before using the fireplace.

If the owner refuses and fills his house with smoke (so the story goes), the mason reminds him to be paid.

Once the Owner pays, the mason goes to the top of the chimney and drops down a brick... If the owner does not pay, the mystery continues because looking up the chimney one sees daylight...

Point being, while wanting to take the high road, there is a temptation to install a poison pill, an obscure valve that only you know about, that will render the system unusable but fixable for the agreed-to fee.

Some people just do not value your time- a crime in my opinion, at least a misdemeanor.

While I can agree with the "get it in writing" folks, to me a person's word is their bond. Let them prove otherwise.

I do have to wonder though, what these people who stiff tradespeople do for work themselves. If one was an attorney, could you not pay if you lost your case?

Mad Dog_2

that sounds fun..........but

I've been by several lawuyers that is illegal to do...once the items are installed, it is considered part of the property...any lawyers here? Mad dog

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tim smith

Have your attorney send a letter of demand for payment or

court actions will be taken to collect the dollars. Sometimes it just takes this. If he does not remit in time stated. You can either choose to file small claims suit or not. Not much skin off your back. This is only true I would think if amount was over a grand or two and only if you think charges were totally fair. Attorney probably will only charge 150 or so I would think.

Bob Bona_4

true

MD. Once it's on their property, you can be arrested for trespassing at the very least for trying to repo.

People can be total scumbags, and I'm becoming a big believer in Karma.

Brad White_203

Do I recall correctly

that this was the time you all went out for coffee and let the owner, a really obnoxious type, stew a bit? If so, yes, I love that story.

Mitch_6

I have had more problems with contractors than home owners

But the basic rules apply.

1) Some people know up front they do not have the money and never intend to pay. Unless they are forced to by items such as going to court. These people go from contractor to contractor hopping that if they do not pay the contractor will just drop it and walk away.

2)Unless they have some good reason for not wanting to pay a bill or part of a bill I will not just walk away. I have had a few, very few cases on over 20 years of billing someone and for one reason or another they wanted a reduction and I gave it.

3) Court does work but takes time. I have filed the people do not show but find a check in the mail box the next day. They just wanted to take up more of my time. I have had judgements in my favor but had to chase them through the system to get paid. I have had the judge split the difference.

4) Some people just do not have the money and no mater what you will never get paid.

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JB_8

thanx

I think this is going to happen more and more as time moves on.

J Heritage

Just got back home from another wonderfull day at work and they had the guts to call and ask us to return because one of the loops were blead must still have some air in it and that area of the home was not heating. He said it heated before I drained the system and repaired te leak and I should return to make it work again. Of course his verbage was a little stronger than that but it did feel good to know at least he has at least a little problem. I just hung up and am going to kiss the money good bye it wasent worth my time to argue. Maby this is a little of there. carma coming back at them.

J Heritage

I think we are going to have to put in place a rule of anything over for example $300.00 must be approved and signed for on our invoice and then they can only pay by credit card with pre approval, cash or money order in advance if they are a new customer and we have no history with them. We are also starting to see a increase in NSF checks.
Anyone els have a simmilar rule in place yet.

Chris S

getting paid

Like the car dealerships do? Sign on the line before work is performed. They have the advantage that they have your car on their premises. When you (we) bring something to someones property, it becomes chattel, and we are trespassing if we try to remove it.

As far as people who have no intention of paying, the only thing we have in our favor is our gut instinct. I was burned a few months ago for $600, but the last time I took a hit was over 15 years ago, so in my mind I have to average it out and accept it. The woman who got me is a lawyer, but I'll still work for lawyers. I had an uneasy feeling going in, but pushed on anyway, shame on me.

I think the peolple who don't intend to pay will continue with their tactics. I think those who would normally pay right away, but are short on money .... honest hard working peolpe like all of us may need terms, or credit cards to pay their bills. I think there are those in between a few who will beat us if we let them.

I refuse to loose faith in humanity over the one who beat me, just as I refuse to participate in the current recession. I will not loose sleep over the bad apples, I put it out of my mind & move on.

Unknown

I heard this

italian sandwich bag+hydraulic cement+house trap

or silicon spray lubricant+outdoor condenser

Mitch_6

I forgot one important thing

I have had signed contracts with deposit. It was a three day job. The check came back as no funds after I was done I had to chase the guy around for two years paid the sheriff to bring him in in hand cuffs and still got nothing in the end. No mater what if they are going to screw you and have nothing to loos you are screwed.

As to not going back for the call back E mail me direct, I bet they send you they bill for having some one else come back and fix it and they will take you to court if you do not pay.

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nicholas bonham-carter

crime

the crime is "theft of sevices", and doesn"t seem to carry a great penalty by law. we landlords get stiffed from time to time. the times we have had to keep a deposit, i realise we should have had 6 months worth of rent, instead of only 1!

the bricklayer/chimney story is a good one--nbc