C0 Meters

Unknown

higher if someone dies and you do not test. You do not need code to offer testing to insure saving lives.

All UL 2034 detectors that are sold do not alarm at a low enough level to be called safe and effective. I also do not agree with hard wiring. There should be mutiple detectors in homes and some should be portable and battery operated with alarms for when batteries go.

Try www.co-experts.com for a good low level detector.

If you do not test you might kill someone.

The Mass requirements by the way are a joke as they do not mandate combustion testing at the time of installation of equipment by contractors.

Rhode Island is even worse, 132 conversion burners were installed in RI recently and none had a combustion test done by the installer. The gas company refused to start them and the state inspectors do not test and do not even own a detector.

Metro Man

C0 Meters

Looking to start offering and possibly mandating CO meters on all of our installs and the inspection that these require.

Any of you out there have experience or have a similar program?

Grass - E - **** in advance.

Metro Man

Brad White_203

Without a law in place

such as Massachusetts' "Nicole's Law", are you not pricing yourself into a corner?

I love the concept, maybe get a waiver if they do not "bite", but if you mandate something that a customer does not want and is not required by code, will they not go elsewhere? Not saying it is right, just asking.

In MA, every gas fitter is required when installing a gas appliance to perform the venting, but also to verify that CO detectors are in place. More to it than that, but you get the idea.

Metro Man

See Oh

Thanks Brad,

Was thinking more along the lines of offering brand X, Y. Just got off the phone w/Denver inspectors. CO alarms will be part of the '09 code. Not sure all of the details but think in new construction will need to be hard wired. Inspectors will also have to test these to pass.

Probably will NOT offer CO detection due to the liability issues until the code is in place.

Metro Man

Metro Man

testing

Tim,

We always test when putting unit into service. But we have never offered a CO installed alarm. Thought of starting to but if something should go wrong with CO meter, alarm we could be the 1st head on the block.

Thinking ahead..... boiler manufactures could easily install a CO alarm in with they're controls. Boiler could run a post air purge. Heck.. since these units modulate they should also perform self combustion testing. All we would have to do is verify the numbers with our calibrated Comb. Analyzers.

I do think that some type of alarm should be mandatory for every gas installation. Cheap insurance for homes that are getting tighter and tighter.

Metro Man

Mitch_6

Not to contradict the great Tim and I actually am not

The mass gas code states you must follow the mfg installation manual. Most mod cons and similar boilers state a co limit. Unfortunately the standard ci boilers do not have limits in there instructions just match test draft and 3.5" wc on the outlet of the manifold.

If you were to install a wm ultra and did not test you violated the code. If you install a cga and do not test you are covered as long as you tested gas pressure and draft.

On service calls if you are doing a cleaning or similar annual check the same remains since the co check is written into the mod con instructions.

Then again as I have started a thread on before. We test as a snap shot in time. If co is 6000 ppm but all is going up the chimney what is the harm. If a 35 ppm boiler has a draft or flue blockage issue down the road things change.

Since co is not in the code other than some lame detector items, it is really a gray area.

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Bob Harper

Mitch, that's the point: even with a Worst Case Depressurization test, that is no guarantee it will never spill CO.

Mark Hunt_6

Mr. Harper is 100% correct


I did what you are thinking of here in NY. I built the LOW LEVEL CO alarm into the price of the job.

I never worried about liability when it came to the CO alarm. What if the CO was produced by the equipment I installed and the cheap CO alarm (if any) that the HO had failed? CO alarms don't kill people, CO does. CO alarms do not produce CO, combustion appliances do. ALL combustion appliances.

So in a court of law, the CO alarm people are covered. No medical examiner ever listed a cause of death as "CO alarm failure".

A hard wired CO alarm is not much use during a power outage is it? That is when CO deaths go through the roof. Generators in the garage, gas grills in the living room etc....

Your idea is a good one and I'll bet not one of your competitors will think of it.

You just moved up a notch or two.

Mark H

Mitch_6

No but a boiler properly vented at 35ppm or say 0 ppm

that for some reason or another starts dumping back into the room. The co2 coming back into the room will change the firing rate since you will not have the 21% o2 to burn the fuel.

Then the co will clime at an increasing rate.

I am assuming that if you supply a low level alarm only. It is not UL listed as in the code. In Massachusetts they list the UL code. Therefore if a co alarm is required and you do not use the UL listed and it fails then you are liable.

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Unknown

Good Mitch then in Mass

you can kill them a little slower with Low Level CO poisioning. Mass board has their heads up you know where they have no idea what they are doing. If I had my way every boiler and furnace that did not have a combustion test done in the last 18 months would be shut off and removed.

I have 5 CO detectors in my house all low level and all portable with battery operation. The same number and type in my childrens homes. Better safe than up to code I always say! I will look any lawyer and code inspector in the eye and defy them to prove me wrong in my approach to CO concerns. I will let you know I have backed a few of them down because they really do not know what they are talking about. One inspector in Mass made a statement that it is normal for the plastic on top of a water heater to melt, he stated that is why they use plastic!!! The same inspector stated that 400 PPM is acceptable in the living space per ANSI. He then wanted to argue with me that because I was not licensed in Mass I could not know what I was talking about. All who are licensed in Mass know all things he stated.

Get yourself a good lawyer, lots of insurance, and sleeping pills so you can sleep at night. Reason bottom line if you do not test and protect customers and you leave a fire burning in a house and some one dies you are liable. I defy someone to find me liable because I test and sell detectors which protect my customer from 9PPM and up. Bring them on and lets have some fun!

You of all people know what Jim Davis and I teaches and I assume that you who have been through our training know what I am saying is true.

Unknown

You do not need the manufacturer

to list standards. The testing and proper adjustment of any equipment will get you to a safe and efficient level of CO2, O2 Stack temp and CO.

It would be nice if they did list them I agree but the truth is many times what they listed and what I ended up leaving the equipment at where two different things. You must be a combustion expert. The more you test the more you learn.

Mitch_6

Not trying to argue with you Tim

I test all my installs and have three low level alarms in my truck at all times. I have a testo personal monitor in my pocket on all heating calls.

Just funny how the law works and codes are done.

I am simply stating that they inspect the code or at least are suppose to. No inspector has looked at my low level alarms for the UL number and there is typically a mix of both on site.

I have a local inspector that allows new boilers on exterior terracotta liners he says the efficiency is the same as the 30 yo boiler that got ripped out. Know how many boiler checks I go to pull the smoke pipe out and find the liner falling apart after two or three years.

I put Liners in all my exterior chimney installs and combustion air when required. Know how many times I got told I was waisting the H.O.'s money

One question I do have is not the low level but if you vary from a UL tested device and it does not alarm for some reason I could see a lawyer say if you had installed UL... alarm that was tested and approved then the occupants would have been warned.

I know the UL alarms are crap but it is code so I guess we should have a low level along side a UL to cover our butts.

I am still looking for a low level that ties into a monitored system?

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Mitch_6

I am not stating how I do things I test all my installs and

push my H.O.'s do do pre season check ups.

The code right or wrong states follow the instructions of the mfg. If they do not Wright it in you are not violating the code. If they wright it and you did not do it you violated the code.

Guss how many times I call the mfg for a question on something I find on start up. They reply you really checked that. I say ya its in your manual

They say ya it is but no one ever does it dont worry about it.

I am only stating what the inspector is looking for. In fact I have never had and inspector ask for my combustion results on a mod con. I bring up the subject with them and all I get is a blank stair. I have been told by a couple of inspectors if I get equipment with a high co call the fire department or gas company not them.

They do not care about the combustion test they do care about the stupid sign eight feet off the ground that is in the back yard no one ever looks at.

Oil is different it is part of the permit.

I do attach a combustion test print out on all my installs. I have yet to see anyone else do it. Of about twenty pluming and heating companies I know only three of us have analyzers. One is oil only and the other does both.

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bill_105

already in Anchorage

Several years ago a family of five went to sleep and and never woke up. Anchorage passed ordaninance saying houses have carbon monoxide detectors. Heartbreaking story.

Unknown

My answer is

put one hard wired in the location they want to cover their rules, make sure the CO can read the sign outside.

Then outfit the customer with low level detectors and instruct them on how to stay alive and healthy.

I was sitting watching TV the other night and my Co-Experts detector went off, cause was from my pellet stove with snow from my neighbours snow blower blocking my vent with the snow he blew against my house. It registered 11 PPM, shut the stove off and did some investigation abnd found the snow. Fifteen minutes later stove back on and the Celtics won.

By the way the fire department nor the gas company can fix equipment which makes CO. National Grid Home Energy Services are putting in conversion burners and not even testing them.

Mitch_6

I know they give a nice sweet low price

that's why if I find the utility is giving a bid I do not bother.

The plumbing inspectors want nothing to do with co. The utility only cares the heat is coming out of the radiator and the flue gas is going up the chimney. I have shut equipment down just to have them turn it on. The fire department checks oil boiler so they must know something about gas LOL.

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