Water Feeder & potential leak in system

Bill_110

I'm just a homeowner trying to hone my analytical skills and improve my own steam system by checking out this site. I did however have an experience with my old steam boiler where my radiators started to heat poorly - checking the site glass I noticed it was full - the system was gradually flooding. I eventually found a washer or something jamming the mechanism where the water feeder shuts off. I guess you have the float type rather than the probe type cutoff, if you are blowing it down every week? I also assume your water feeder is the model people are recommending here, since it keeps track of the volume of makeup water? So at least you are getting a heads up on this problem. From an analytical point of view (thats my point of view, I'm not too sure of my analytical powers to be honest), maybe you should put the water feeder on manual or in some way disable it, so that you can see how the sytem is effected if the missing water is not being replaced. You would of course need some time to anlayze this to monitor radiator heating and the water level in the site glass. Maybe that way you could get an idea of where the leak might be. I don
t suppose it is too likely, though maybe not impossible, that your water feeder is giving a false reading. I assume that when you blow off a couple pails of water the feeder records the amount replaced? How many "units" does this add up to? If you blow off a known amount of water you can verify that the feeder is calibrating properly, and also get an idea of how much water loss is taking place.

Jim Helly

Water Feeder & potential leak

I have a 250,000 BTU gas powered steam boiler. There is a programmable water feeder + low water cut-off installed. Typically the water feed counter would go up by 1 or 2 digits (ie. from 50 to 52) a week (not counting the times it increased due to my draining the boiler-which I do once a week during winter). This is my 3rd season heating with the new boiler & the above pattern has been pretty consistent. However in the last 10 days it has gone up 15 digits. What could explain this sudden change? What should I do next? My house is over 150 years old w/the majority of piping hidden behinds walls, ceilings and hard to reach crawl spaces. If there's a leak somewhere do you add something to the system ?

Thanks. Jim

Bill_110

Have you noticed any other changes in the way your system operates? Is the water in the site glass in the usual position? Has the weather been considerably colder lately - system cycling on much more frequently?

Jim Helly

Bill, thanks for response. I have not observed any other changes. Weather has only been colder the last couple of days + prior to that it was actually seasonably warm. What's causing me concern is this is my 3rd cold season w/the new system and even during periods of extreme cold in the last 2 winters I did not see a big jump in the meter's reading-usually only an increase of 1 or 2 digits a week.

Unknown

Are any of your pipes underground? Why are you "draining" your boiler every week? As was suggested, Do you notice any difference in you sight glass?

Jim Helly

Rod, thanks for reply. There is one line leading to boiler that comes up from under basement's cement. I will have to keep better track of the sight glass level. It's somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 full. What would changes in that level suggest? I was told to drain apprx 2 gallons a week to flush out sediment during heating season.

Jim Helly

Thanks for the input Bill. I do keep track of the meter reading as it replaces what I manually flushed out so it seems to be on track.

Unknown

Hi Jim-
I'm not quite sure where to start. I guess first of all you need to determine the design waterline for your boiler. If you have a copy of the boiler manufacturer's installation instructions it should be in there. It is usually marked "waterline" on a drawing and will show a measurement from the base of the boiler vertically to the designed waterline. I'd then make a mark on the glass sight tube at this level. (You can use a black magic marker for this. I'd also make a mark on the boiler cover at the proper level just in case the mark on the glass is rubbed off) This is the proper level for the boiler water when it is cool and not running (and after all the condensate (water) has drained back into the boiler).

If you don't have the I&O manual (Installation and Operating) you can usually download one for your model boiler from the manufacturer's website. A good idea I've found is to get a 3 ring binder from Staples, along with some 8 1/2 x 11 clear plastic sheet protectors which you then can keep the pages of the manual in plus any print outs of other information that you want to keep. I also keep a record of water added to the boiler and any other servicing done in the binder. I find ring binder really handy as next winter you don't have to hunt high and low for "that damned boiler info."

Adding boiler water - You mentioned adding "digits" of water, I have no idea how big an amount that means so can't guide the seriousness of your leak (if any). Adding excessive/increasing amounts of water to your boiler is generally a sign of a leak somewhere in the system. Leaks can usually are either visible or invisible. Visible leaks are self explanatory. Invisible leaks are those on the the piping runs underground or can be internal within the boiler itself. Since you boiler is quite new,if I was looking for a leak, I would suspect the underground piping. (Internal boiler leaks will show up as steam coming out of the chimney when the boiler is operating)

You mentioned that - "I was told to drain approx 2 gallons a week to flush out sediment during heating season ". This is a "No- No" as one should refrain from adding excess amounts of new (fresh) water to a boiler as oxygen in the "new" water can be very corrosive to the inside of the boiler. After adding new water`it is a good idea to run the boiler as this lowers the amount of dissolved oxygen.

I don't know why anyone would tell you do drain your boiler weekly. The only thing that it might be referring to is a float type Low Water Cut Off. This is a big hunk of iron which is connected by tubing to your site glass and has a valve handle on the outside so that you can blow it off. Doing a weekly blow off of this valve is to clear`any accumulated sediment in the LWCO bowl that might impair the operation of the float and the amount of water blown off is usually less than a cup full. Boiler draining/flushing is normally something you do as a yearly maintenance item.

If you don't have the "big hunk of iron" type of LWCO you have the probe type of LWCO which requires just a yearly maintenance of checking/cleaning the probe. It's just an electrical type box connected to the boiler at a level close to that or slightly below the bottom of the sight glass.

If you do have a leak I would strongly suspect it is in the underground section of your boiler's return line. These usually go sooner or later. I had to replace mine several year ago. If you are having problems with dirty boiler water it may be because the underground pipe has rotted out and letting mud enter the pipe.

I think what I would do at this point is to closely monitor your boiler water use and prepare for replacing the wet return to you boiler sometime in the near future if necessary. Hopefully it will last out the rest of the winter.

If you don't already have them I would strongly suggest that you get Dan's books on steam heating. (See "A Steamy Deal" at the bottom of this page) They are easy reading (not technical textbooks) and crammed full of facts and diagrams on steam heating systems. After a couple of evenings of reading you'll know all about your steam system.

If I kept a list of items where I really got my money's worth, Dan's books would be right at the top. They will give you enough knowledge to either fix things yourself or know what has to be done. If nothing else, you will be able to determine if the guy proposing to work on your system is competent with steam.

As mentioned above, at this point I'd just mark the proper water level on the glass sight tube and then closely monitor the daily usage. If it appears to get increasingly excessive then you will need to think about calling in a pro to check it out.
- Rod

Jim Helly

Thanks Rod. You've given a lot of good info. My LWCO is a probe so now I am wondering why I was told to do the weekly flush!!! I will mark the glass tube and monitor the level. Just out of curiousity is it normal for any smoke to come out of the chimney. I've seen my neighbors chimneys smoking and believe I've also seen mine smoking at times? Thanks for all the advice

Mark Custis

Smoke is what

makes electric motors work. If you let the smoke out they stop going around.

Flue gas, products of combustion, on a cold day can look like smoke. If you are shoveling snow, note your breath in the air.

If the boiler is leaking you will have no doubt it is not the same. Think car wash.

I bet the return is flawed, or at least leaking a bit.

Unknown

Hi Jim -
Well if you have the probe type LWCO, I haven't a clue what the flushing was all about. I flush just once a year and hose out the boiler and wet return.

If the system is setup properly and has no leaks, the makeup water you should need to add to your boiler is normally a very minimal amount.

After reading my post over I was a bit worried that I might have caused confusion about water lines. You might want to read the following as it mentions the sight glass water ("normal") line and the LWCO "waterline" and the relationship between the two.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=54

It also mentions automatic water feeders and leaks. This is a typical example of Dan's writing, very informative and easy to read.

Internal boiler (steam) leak - As Mark said you won't have any doubt about this.

- Rod

Jim Helly

Thanks Mark. I checked the smoke coming out of chimney tonight. Definitely not a "car wash" effect so that puts my mind at ease. Appreciate the assistance.

Jim Helly

Thanks for all your help Rod. The link was very informative. I appreciate all your input.