Time to Replace Boiler?

Perry_5

Depending on the age and how over sized your boiler many people get between 20% - 40% fuel savings with a new boiler over most old boilers. There are cases where people get more than that.

So do you think you will be saving $500 per year, $1000 per year, or more?

The cost of each job is somewhat unique depending on exact piping and other new or updated things needed - and it is not possible to even give good estimates without a professional seeing and reviewing your exact situation; but It will be in the $$$$ range.

What is your payback expectation: 3 years, 5 years, 10 years?

Perry

Perry

Russ_13

We have a 20-year old Lochinvar Mini-Fin gas boiler powering the original 1909 radiators using one B&G circulator with thermostatic valves on all 2nd floor radiators. There are only about 30 days worth of sub-freezing temps during the winter, mainly at night. I don't think we can use a condensing boiler, but would a new modulating boiler, like a Lochinvar Solution, save enough in fuel to justify the cost?

Perry_7

Is there anything wrong with your existing boiler?

As long as your existing boiler is running fine - then it is unlikely that a replacement boiler is worth the cost.

If the boiler needs replacement becasue of problems - then moving upwards in efficiency may be worth the cost.

Boilers tend to be fairly pricy things to replace - and you are not likely to regain that cost on efficiency alone.

Its kinda like a car. If you have a 5 year old (or older) car that is paid for - and just needs routine maintenance - with no reason to replace it. Buying a new car that gets 10 - 20 MPG more will probably not be overall economical. Yes you will get better GPM, but you just paid a $10,000 + premium for that better efficiency - and $10,000 + buys a lot of gas.

Perry

Maine Ken

"Boilers tend to be fairly pricy things to replace - and you are not likely to regain that cost on efficiency alone. "


HUH?????

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Russ_13

The boiler is running just fine. I'm just wondering whether a new one would more than pay for itself in fuel savings.

MIke_Jonas

Let's talk about that existing boiler/house

Has it been serviced properly through the years? Do you have a professional look after it?

Have you made any upgrades in the house in 20 years? Better windows/doors/insulation?

Is the existing boiler sized properly for the house as it is today? What does your service provider say?

Just because it's been there 20 years and has been running fine doesn't mean it's correct. I see, on a regular basis, 20-30 year old boilers twice as big as they need to be. They are "running fine". Switching them over to a properly sized, condensing boiler saves most more than half.

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Unknown

Sheesh,

I`m starting to detect different opinions on this,, could The Great Perry be wrong??

I bet the auto makers would be happy if everyone chose that preference too!

Dave

Russ_13

Annual fuel cost for the boiler is about $1800. Payback expectation is at least 10 years. Thanks for the feedback.

Russ_13

The boiler has not been serviced as much as it should. I cleaned the heat exchanger 2 years ago and didn't find much to actually clean. There haven't been any major upgrades to the home in terms of insulation. We already have storm windows. The boiler gets some long run times when it's cold, so I don't think it is oversized. Thanks.

GW

automobile

I'm not digging the automobile analogy...how many people look for a 'pay back' when they buy a new car?

This country needs a cultural shift. One reason why there are so mant clunky boilers a cheesy furnaces is because our society has no real motivation to put the hook and chain on the dinosaurs.

Dinosaur? How many people drive a 20 yr old car? What a joke. Our society deems it noble to drive up to, what, maybe a 5 year old vehicle (i'm not talking work trucks here guys).

I'm not seeing the car analogy.

My family vehicle is a 2005. Anyone care to share "how old" their car is? Lets see how many 20 yr old car owners we have on this thread.

Gary

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Perry_5

Its plausable...

Thanks for thinking long term. A lot of people do not.

With numbers like that a new boiler is plausible.

You will need to have a professional look at your situation and advise.

You specifically need to have someone who will do a heat loss estimate on your house and properly size a replacement. Unfortunately, many heating contractors do not do that and you may not get the best system.

It may be that a normal non-condensing boiler may do the trick as well.

This forum is a good place to start to find a professional (a true professional). There are some real crackerjack people on this forum - and perhaps you live in one of their service areas or they can recommend someone in your area.

Best wishes on your review.

Perry

Perry_5

My newest vehicle is...

15 years old, the other 18. The 18 year old one is in better mechanical condition due to rebuilding (new engine, Xmission overhaul, brakes, suspension, etc). Rebuilding the full size van was a lot cheaper than even a recent used one - and I don't use it that much - but when I need it I need it.

The 15 year old car is in fact not going to last many more years... It's only time now before something major goes. It won't be worth rebuilding - and I already know what I'm replacing it with when the day comes (be it tomorrow or 2 years). I just see no reason to spend that kind of $ any sooner than I have to.

nicholas bonham-carter

boileronomy

would outdoor reset help here? since it's a relatively mild winter climate, the programmed change of water temps, to correspond to outside temp. could save some money.--nbc

ttekushan_3

Perry, your advice

is on the money, as far as I'm concerned. Obviously one has to really know the facts and analyze a particular installation before calculating a Payback period, assuming the new equipment will last long enough to ever pay back. I also mean to include in that the lifecycle energy consumed by the product including construction and recycling.

Sometimes an old dinosaur that happens to be right sized, reliable, reasonably well maintained and moderately efficient is worth keeping in service. Has anyone run combustion on the old boiler?

I see the automobile analogy a bit flawed only in that people often replace a car because it becomes practically unserviceable after a period of time. This also depends on its original construction quality, design and maintenance. There's also nothing pleasant about being stranded! Old boilers relevant to this discussion instead have this habit of running for decades without failing to deliver heat when you need it.

Though not the norm, I have a couple of new clients who regret spending the money to replace functioning old boilers due only to age. Turns out, the old boilers in these cases were quite sophisticated in many respects and were "top shelf" stuff, only to be replaced with pretty mediocre but new and shiny equipment.

BTW, I'm probably not a good example, but my daily driver and traveling car is 27 years old, has 650,000+ miles and still delivers 30+ mpg. Obviously, it was meticulously maintained for the better part of its life. Though long showing its age, its reliable and I enjoy driving it more than most of today's moderately priced pickings. Just call me "Columbo."

-Terry

mark ransley

I had a good working fairly large 30 yr old HW boiler, replaced it with a small boiler. The new boiler was downsized a bit has auto flue damper and no standing pilot. We saw no real savings over 7 years with the new unit which is 83% efficent, the old unit was maybe 82% efficent. I was talked out of a 96% condensing unit and regret it. If old boiler burns bad, is way oversized you will save some, but steady state efficency will be about the same unless you go condensing. The new boiler is the top Weil McLain non condensing.
England a milder climate country banned non condensing units years ago, while they still exported energy.That should have been done here also.

Perry_5

Another thought - probably better payback...

I live in a lot colder area than you... (I go months on end below freezing - and typically see a month below zero) and my heating and hot water bills were about $1800 per year (1300 Sq ft living area + full size basement).

I got about a 40% reduction in fuel usage when I had to replace my 50+ year old boiler by going with a top of the line modulating/condensing boiler (Vitodens 200). Hopefully it will last for a long time. And YES, top of the line means top dollar too...

However, as you are having a similar - if not more expensive - heating bill in a warmer climate... I would suspect that your house is not insulated well or has other major energy leaks and issues.

I'd get a home energy audit to identify the major energy losses and cheapest fixes. I suspect for a lot less money than a new boiler that you could dramatically reduce the energy use of your house and lower your heating - and Air Conditioning cost.

Home energy audits typically cost a hundred or two... I spent a month sealing up all kinds of air in leakage... and my energy audit identified that the windows were a major problem - well beyond normal due to how badly the sashes leaked air (and you could not seal the air leaks without sealing shut the window either).

The energy audit did identify that a new boiler would help... but that by itself would not be cost effective. It was several years later that the old boiler started exhibiting signs of its dying.

Ensure that the person - or company - you hire for the energy audit is independent from a heating/AC company - and that they use the state or federal government approved program.

Sorry for not mentioning this before.

Perry

Unknown

Not everyone necessarily wants to drive a new car. My hobby is restoring and rebuilding cars, so I am not probably a typical case. Our family cars range in age from 14 to 58 years, my wife's being the newest, a 1995 with 170K miles.

My daily drivers are a 1981 with 192K and a 1982 with 221K, the remaining cars are older hobby projects.

I prefer the older pre-computer cars as they can easily be self maintained. The early 1980's cars are survivors of the last gas crisis and usually get gas mileage in the 25 to 35 MPG range. When cars get this old and still survive, you can really see which makes and models were built and designed well, and which ones weren't!

Plumdog_2

How many 20 year old cars?

I have a 27 year old (German) car that gets 29 miles per gal. (when driven in a conservative manner) and yet is capable of 145 miles per hour. It is the cheapest car to own of the five I have.
I think that Mini-Therm could last awhile longer, but you should get the heat exchanger washed out and the burner tuned every few years. Watch out that the vent doesn't develop rust holes. That boiler is about as economical to buy new as any out there.

Russ_13

Thank you very much for your thoughtful advice. Our home is about 2900 square feet, stone exterior, with unheated basement and attic. We'll look into an audit per your suggestion.

Russ_13

Thanks for your advice. A professional service call will be on our agenda.

radiconnection

My car is a 1993 Dodge Voyager. Wife drives a '97 Buick LaSabre (low mileage.) (My company supplied van is a GMC 2500, about 3 years old.) We keep them maintained and running right. When they die I'll pay cash for a new one. My boiler is a new Biasi with ODR, however.

Jim Franklin

American heating technology... don't ya just love it!

Unfortunately those yellow tags on the boilers don't tell the whole story...

"If old boiler burns bad, is way oversized you will save some, but steady state efficency will be about the same unless you go condensing."

Apparently you haven't read Brookhavens' report on Energy Kinetics System 2000, course they tested an oil unit not a gas one. This system beat out a modulating condensing gas unit.