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Electronic or Magnetic water softning

ttekushan_3
ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
I mentioned the conditions under which they help, which are limited but potentially significant. They add or subtract nothing from the water. Non heated evaporative surfaces scale as normal, but the scale becomes easier to remove, in my experience. Its on boiler heating surfaces that I've observed the shedding of heavier scale. They are no substitute for the usual maintenance, nor is anything else! I could never recommend magnetic systems when they cost as much as a softening system. But when I spend $7.50 on neodymium magnets, it sure is worth a try! Does anyone really think I was confident in the outcome when I was only willing to spend the price of a lunch on it?

Where I have maintenance contracts for steam boilers, I install about $10.00 worth of magnets to make my job easier. I don't bother to mention that i've put them there, their cost being absorbed into the basic charges. Some may call it snake oil, but snake oil is really only snake oil if your are charging snake oil prices for it. I prefer peanut oil prices:-)
terry

Comments

  • Electronic or Magnetic water softning

    Do any of you have tankless water heaters installed in hard water conditions with one of these devices as the only thing to soften the water? What have been your experiences?
    TONY
  • Brad White_203
    Brad White_203 Member Posts: 506
    IMHO

    magnetic water softening is a sideline sold by Madoff and company, brokered by a gentleman in Nigeria who has some money he wants to put into your bank account, bless his soul.
  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
    Too funny Brad

    Seriously, I have a tankless, at first I had a water softner system, but got rid of it when I installed a solar pre-heat system.(needed the room) I did at that time installed a magnetic unit. And by-golly it works!
    One thing I've always had on my tankless is a scale stopper unit by Cuno. This food grade cartidge coats the inside of the pipes, preventing any limescale to adhere to the surface.




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  • Andrew Hagen_4
    Andrew Hagen_4 Member Posts: 44
    Magnets

    I have to agree with Brad on the magnets.
  • How do we know it works

    if your injecting phosphate? LOL
    Tony
  • Could I run the pipe

    thru a Taco 007 in place of the cartridge? Just cut the end open to create the tunnel.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    BOTH of my favorite Engineering Curmudgeons :-)

    What EVER you do, NEVER think outside of the "box" :-)

    I have successfully applied magnetic water conditioners for 34 years on calcium based lime scale accumulations, and have successfully removed existing scale accumulations and avoided further accumulations.

    Your milage may vary. If it is a critical application, like power steam boiler, treat it chemically. If it is a silica based problem (A.k.a. Glass Water) don't waste your money. It won't touch it.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Brad White_191
    Brad White_191 Member Posts: 252
    ME, I \"live\" outside the box...

    I can be convinced but every place I have heard folks trying that, has yet to be proven. There is a system sold around here, I cannot mention the name, that imposes an electrical current (advertised as scientifically tuned to *gasp* 60 Hertz!) which purports to do the same thing..

    Now, not to paint with too wide a brush, but the promises made versus promises kept were at an inverse ratio.

    Now, I am, as you know, a huge fan of rare earth (neodymium) magnets to catch stray iron. The water is clean and silky smooth, but then the TSP had a hand in that too I suppose.

    Hardly a curmudgeon, rather, I have an open mind but am not willing to dismiss my experience wholesale without compelling evidence. Sort of like ignoring ROI when shoveling money into an investment.

    EDIT: -Mark-, I absolutely take the curmudgeon term as an endearment! Especially from you, you curmudgeon, you!

    Which reminds me, what would happen if a Nigerian e-mail scammer actually conned Bernie Madoff? That would have been a financial nuclear chain reaction worth watching.:)
  • Doug_7
    Doug_7 Member Posts: 233
    Magnetic water treatment and pseudoscience

    Web-site that explains the benefits of Magnetic water treatment.

    http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html
  • Ken Field
    Ken Field Member Posts: 127
    What about this

    http://fieldcontrols.com/clearwavehd.php
    I respect this manufacturer. I have heard from an expert in another field that these things work great. I have installed one and am watching to see if the coil plugs in the same amount of time as it did before the installation.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    My use of the term curmudgeon

    is a term of endearment. Both you and Andrew have my utmost respect.

    Check this out. How can a company be in business for over 44 years and produce bogus equipment?

    http://www.superiorwaterconditioners.com/

    They've worked for me for 35 years now.

    They use permanent COBALT magnets.

    I've never tried any of the plug in types, yet...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Interesting side bar....

    About 20 years ago, a customer of mine young son wanted to do an experiment for his schools Science Fair, and he wanted to do it about water. I introduced him to MWC's and an article I had discovered that was a test done by the Haifa Institute in Israel. The experiment entailed treating water with MWC's and the effect on the growth rate of melons. Their results were nothing less than spectacular, using desert brine water, sea water and ground water.

    He did a test with softened water, rain water and city water using wheat sprouts. His results were similarly dramatic and he won the State of Colorado High School Science Fair competition.

    BTW, the soft water killed the spouts shortly after they sprouted...

    The city water was much better, but the MWC rain water sprouts were DOUBLE the size of the city water samples.

    Graphic to say the least.

    I've also heard stories about vinters in California doubling the sugar content of their fruits using the same technology.

    Gotta be SOMETHING to it.

    BTW Brad, you left the TSP in solution in your system? The one time I accidentally did that it ate through the walls of the Buderus steel panel radiators.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
    calcium

    I now use them for evaporative devices like steam boilers after performing my own experiments beforehand. I was merely curious. I used a steam humidifier that would run only a week or so before premature shutdown due to scale buildup. The water in my area contains large amounts of calcium so I can't make any claims regarding other regional water characteristics. I took the unit out of service out of annoyance but thought this unit would be a good testbed. After application of the magnets, the scale began to shed off the heating element. The element now maintains a thin layer of white scale. The rest pops off the element to be discarded from the tray.

    I have not cleaned the element in two seasons since. It continues to work as new.

    For months, I'd dump the tray of pieces of scale and see a clean coil. I'd just shake my head in disbelief and a laugh. Only later did I come across a company's site that shows heating coils similar to mine, showing identical before and after images. So it amazes me to be told to my face that I've imagined the results (not here, but elsewhere). I don't sell the units, I just have done my own trials that show positive results beyond any shadow of a doubt.

    The white substance is Aragonite which has the same chemical composition as calcium carbonate but its crystal structure is different, being softer and physically weaker. Its found in nature where deep ground water has passed through veins of magnetite.

    Since water is diamagnetic and is effected by magnetic fields, I can only guess that its orientation within the calcium carbonate as it crystallizes is what creates the aragonite. BTW, its this diamagnetic nature of water that allows a microwave oven to heat water. It rapidly reverses the water molecules to get them to heat.

    Magnetic treatment doesn't soften the water, but can offer a softening effect depending on water chemistry. It only seems to have an effect on evaporative surfaces. I don't think it prevent corrosion. It certainly doesn't deaerate. The only thing I've noticed on steam boilers is that I can significantly reduce the amount of water treatment chemicals added, but not eliminate them.

    These are my direct experiences. Or I'm lying just for fun. Your choice.
    terry
  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
    waste

    The "Green" aspect is something to consider with automatic chemical treatment,
    The many gallons of spent water backflushed down the drain. And the brine with it. Plus electrical consumption.

    Glad to know I'm not the only sucka out there who believes in mags

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  • Brad White_191
    Brad White_191 Member Posts: 252
    TSP and Curmudgeonlyness

    Hi Mark-

    I edited my post but to be clear, I take "curmudgeon" from you as 100% affection, I do! :)

    Now, the TSP- you make a good point to clarify-

    I do not leave the full concentration in the system, not at all. I flush the system to a factor of at least 10 times (huge water bill). I use the principle that if each flushing removes 90% of the residual, then (0.9 x 0.1 remainder), etc. etc. is removed each pass. Conservative.

    I also test the pH of the initial fluid and the pH of the incoming water and get the water down low enough so that the final pH and that of the "pure" make-up is nearly identical. If a tad alkaline, I can live with that.

    TSP eating steel? Aluminum definitely, but steel? In concentration anything is possible. Always learning, especially from you.

    I will check out the magnet info you posted. I just have to wait for my Mood Ring to warm up ;)
  • realolman
    realolman Member Posts: 513
    A side note

    My wife has a mood ring. When she's in a good mood it turns green. When she's in a bad mood it makes big red marks on my forehead.
  • Brad White_191
    Brad White_191 Member Posts: 252
    Being open to persuasion

    By nature, I am a skeptic and the occasional anecdote, (unless it happens to me :), would not sway me. I am not prone to believing something new unless it squares in preponderance with what I already know to be true.

    Such is the case with magnets. I have heard and read the claims and kept asking, "where's the beef?".

    Still, I am open to learning, also my nature. I am open to the concept that magnets may work in water burdened by certain substances and not others.

    I am open to the possibility if not probability that magnets do not work when targeting a treatment solution for which there is no intended benefit.

    Case: Open.

    My $0.02

    Brad
  • mark ransley
    mark ransley Member Posts: 155


    I have a tankless and hard water, I installed 2 drain valves, one at the bottom and one above the unit, Every year I shut off the water, drain the tankless, close bottom drain, open top drain, attach hose with funnel and pour in lime away then rinse after a few minutes. I know it works, I know magnets make motors move,I dont see how they can stop scale, scale is not magnetic in my area and nor is my copper pipe. Hey I hear magnets improve gas milage, you should try not one but two, money back guarntee.
  • Conrad
    Conrad Member Posts: 3
    Magnets

    Hardness in water (Calcium & Magnesium) are electricaly charged Ions. The magnets will work if the only thing you are trying to accomplish is to have the hardness stay in solution by disturbing the Ion's so they will not build up on the inside of the coil. This said, the water will still be every bit as hard coming out of the pipes as it is going in. You will still have the calcium build up on the fixtures and shower wall's and your soaps will not work as efficiently as they would if you had a properly sized Water Softner. For the money these magnetic systems cost as opposed to doing it the correct way I personally do not see the benefit.
  • Harold
    Harold Member Posts: 249
    How to duplicate

    Can you provide some specific information so your setup can be duplicated? Magnet size, shape, magnetic strength, number used, positions/spacing, etc.

    It would be interesting for people to be able to duplicate your experience.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    You can get an ion exchange water conditioner for $30.00???

    I'll take 12!

    I paid $30.00 for a LimeFighter capable of 10 GPM flow rate.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    Here's A Discussion From...

    ... an engineering site I frequent. Below, is a string I copied, in which magnetic water treatment devices are discussed. Pay particular attention to posts from "bimr", who very effectively demolishes the mag water treatment guys.

    Eng-Tips Forums http://www.eng-tips.com/

    AREA: Civil / Environmental Engineers/Activities
    FORUM: Water treatment & distribution
    SUBJECT: How do magnetic water softeners work?

    HANDLE: Vasilis
    POSTED ON: Jan 20

    QUESTION:
    I have seen adverts of devices that are said to use strong magnets to remove
    Ca and Mg Carbonate salts from water. I cannot imagine the principle behind
    this operation. Could anyone enlighten me?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: njw5
    POSTED ON: Feb 3, 2001

    REPLY:
    I'm trying to research the same topic.  I don't like the idea and on going
    cost of chemical treatments nor water softening.

    I've found 3 web sites of products so far.
    1. http://www.wts2000.com
    2. http://www.ecosoftsystems.com (ScaleBan 2000 product)
    3. http://www.ed2000.com (Electronic Descaling 2000 product)

    If you don't have Bullseye search engine, you may want to get it (it's
    free)http://www.intelliseek.com

    I've also started searching patents (using bullseye patent search -
    "descaling").  This is where I found the company name Electronic Descaling
    (Pat. No. 5725778)  Again using bullseye, I found their website ed2000.com)

    If you find any usefull sites and info, please let me know.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: njw5
    POSTED ON: Feb 3, 2001

    REPLY:
    Also search for "Magnetic Water Treatment"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: Vasilis
    POSTED ON: Feb 4, 2001

    REPLY:
    Thanks for responding. I will check these sites. If I find any information I
    will sure post it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: njw5
    POSTED ON: Feb 4, 2001

    REPLY:
    The U.S. Department of Energy
    Federal Technology Alerts

    Non-Chemical Technologies for Scale and Hardness Control
    Technology for improving energy efficiency through the removal or prevention
    of scale.

    http://www.pnl.gov/fta/11_non.htm
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: Tap
    POSTED ON: Feb 11, 2001

    REPLY:
    My opinion is that magnets do not work. I researched it once and found no
    firm proof.
    have said.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: Vasilis
    POSTED ON: Oct 23, 2001

    REPLY:
    I am glad that magnetic fields seem to work towards removal of
    scale-producing ions. However, I still cannot find an explanation that would
    stand to scientific reason! As soon as I find a strong magnet I will try it
    myself. I have access to copper pipes supplying my home with water. Would it
    work if I just placed a horseshoe magnet around a pipe or a diffenet shape
    is recommended? Alternatively, I could use an electromagnet...  I have to do
    some experimenting!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Oct 23, 2001

    REPLY:
    Theer is a large volume of sdcintific literature on the mechanism.  Two
    sites you should look at are
    http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html
    http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sims/water/magnets.htm
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: Duker
    POSTED ON: Dec 3, 2001

    REPLY:
    So, do the systems such as ScaleBan and Aquavantage work?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Dec 4, 2001

    REPLY:
    If these devices are electro-magnetic, then there is no consensus how or
    even if they do work.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: DeltaCascade
    POSTED ON: Feb 6, 2005

    REPLY:
    Magnets do not remove calcium and magnesium from water, not by conventional
    means such as turning mass into energy with nuclear fission, nor by blasting
    it to hyperspace.  Please excuse the sci-fi puns.
    Unlike external treatments upstream of the waters point of use (eg: water
    softening) or internal treatments at the water's point of use (scale
    inhibiting chemical additives), effectiveness of magnets at changing calcium
    ion scaling tendencies has not been demonstrated.  Testimonials of trusting
    magnet users may demonstrate otherwise, but these kind folk seldom have much
    to say when they find that they have been duped, if indeed they do have
    opportunity to realize it. 
    Water treatment programs, external or internal, are often insurance policies
    against upsets or long term scaling ... effects of their subsitituion with
    magnet treatment, for example, are insidious and often not quickly detected.

    Consensus has appeared to develop at this forum, as elsewhere.  Courtesy of
    a fellow tipster, visit also:
    Thread127-101996
    Thread127-33674
    Thread1133-113921
    Thread340-72044
    Thread164-4423
    As one tipster said, "For the snake-bit and well informed, the short answer
    is no", they don't work as scale inhibitors. 
    Cheers//
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: Waterbuff
    POSTED ON: Feb 19, 2005

    REPLY:
    Hi,

    based upon science as I know it (I'm a Physicist), I only can answer the
    question with: "They don't". The problem indeed is: even if somehow ions
    could be magnetically "blocked" - where do they go? The energies indeed are
    a bit low to consider a transfer to hyperspace a serious option (that would
    require the energy of an entire star. Most other proposed mechanisms require
    less than astronomic energies but still energies several orders of magnitude
    above that which is applied. However, I read the Cranfield University School
    of Water Science article suggested above, and what can I say? It DOES seem
    to work in certain cases. Probably something to do with changed
    crystalization "behavior". The article also cautions that most consumer
    level devices do NOT work, and 70% of the industry level instalations are in
    closed cooling cycles, where they do prevent built up. But how? They don't
    know. I don't know. Guess that would be a nice Ph.D. topic!

    Cheers!

    Stefan Thiesen
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: TBP
    POSTED ON: Feb 19, 2005

    REPLY:
    Closed loops, like chilled or hot water systems will only suffer from scale
    build-up if there's an on-going supply of make-up water. If the system is
    tight, and the expansion tank is correctly selected & installed, then there
    should be no make-up water requirement. With or without a magnet, no make-up
    water, no scale.

    Most "water treatment" or "chemical" problems in boilers, chillers, cooling
    towers, etc have a mechanical root cause. Make things right mechanically,
    and most of the "water treatment" problems simply vanish.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: Murphy625
    POSTED ON: Feb 19, 2005

    REPLY:


    Why not just look to see what the magnet collected?

    If its blocking anything, it has to be stuck to the magnet right?

    My other thought is that even if something stuck to the magnet, I would
    think that water velocity in the pipe might also remove some of it and make
    the technique useless or maintenance intensive.

    Just a guess.

    Murphy
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: quark
    POSTED ON: Feb 20, 2005

    REPLY:
    Murphy,

    I am not playing devils advocate here, but your idea of something sticking
    to magnet is wrong, as far as my reading is concerned. The particles need
    not be magnetic.

    Water has a tremendous capability of remembering things and it was observed
    that when water is subjected to magnetic field, the effect was observed to
    be acting for couple of hours after removing the magnetic field. The theory
    goes that magnetic field alters the physical structure of hard scale and
    makes it soft. That is why those PM Machinists show us the increase in
    conductivity after installing those philosopher's stones.

    So far so good, but as already noted in the above posts, all the ions stay
    afloat in the water and only way to remove them is to drain the water.

    Regards,



    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: Murphy625
    POSTED ON: Feb 20, 2005

    REPLY:


    I find it hard to believe that someone, somewhere has not performed some
    scientific tests.

    And if those tests turned out to show the magnets work, why have the big
    water treatment companies not jumped on the wagon?

    My guess is the magnet probably does have some type of effect but not enough
    to make it practical for every-day usage.

    But then again,  it is just my guess.

    I love my city water !!   LOL

    Murphy

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Feb 21, 2005

    REPLY:
    Actually there has been quite a bit of scientific reserach into this matter.
    See for instance the following links
    http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html

    http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/magnetic.html

    http://www.wrc.org.za/publications/watersa/2003/july/1423.pdIt is not
    physics which controls the phenomnon but physcial chemistry.  The water
    molecules cluster aroud the electrolyte ions.  The charge will equalise
    around the ions so that the clusters will exhibit the opposite charge on the
    surface.
    Apparently the magnetic field has some effect on this surface distribution
    which enables the calcium to precipitate out as aragonite a much less
    adherent form than the nornal scale calcite.
    My own personal experience of magnetic descaling is in my earlier posting.



    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: brodgers
    POSTED ON: Feb 21, 2005

    REPLY:
    I am an environmental engineer and have used magnets for water softening in
    the past.  The vendor we purchased the magnets from was called Friegee
    Technology.  The vendor spelling is wrong because I could not locate their
    web site.  I don't remember how to spell it.  On their web site, they
    discuss the effects magnets fields have on water molecules.  If I remember
    correctly, some of the unusual properties of water are due to Van Der Waals
    forces, which tend to compact water molecules closer together than would be
    predicted.  These forces acting on water create what is termed
    megamolecules, where single water molecules tend to bond and behave as a
    much larger entity.  The magnetic field disrupts this bonding energy and
    breaks mega molecules down into smaller entities.  This increases the
    solubility of minerals in water.

    My recollection is that this effect is short lived.  We placed very powerful
    magnets on the influent line of air stripper and they reduced the amount of
    scale deposits on the packing material.  The vendor had an excellent
    explanation of the process with electron microscope pictures of mineral
    deposits before and after.  I'll try to find the web site and re-post.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: BobPE
    POSTED ON: Feb 21, 2005

    REPLY:
    here is a great site from a previous post:

    http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html

    BobPE
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Feb 22, 2005

    REPLY:
    Brodger, the name you are looking for is Freije. The Freije device doesn't
    use magnets!

    Frieje's quote: "The FREIJE Series E sends an induced oscillating electric
    field through the pipe wall into the water. This produces molecular
    agitation in the water in accordance with Faraday's law."

    However, Faraday's law is misquoted. Faraday's law says that a magnetic
    field that changes in time can create an electric field!

    http://www.freije.com/


    All you have to do is have a little faith:

    http://www.freije.com/faith/index.php

    If you are  not a believere, you can try this site:

    http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

    On a serious note, the list of medicine men selling this crap is truly
    impressive:

    http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Feb 22, 2005

    REPLY:
    pysillium,
    The germ of these descaling ideas is probably due to a phenomenon that is
    well known to the water treatment profession, but apparently is not known to
    any extent outside of it, namely that a change in the composition of the
    water will frequently shell off the old scale right down to the bare metal.
    Thus, a change in the composition of the raw water, a change in compounds,
    or the temporary cessation of feeding one, will often shell off old scale.

    Two examples will illustrate this. A gas company using a hard well water had
    scale in its boilers and on its cooling coils. As the chlorides in this well
    water increased, owing to the gradual working back of seawater, another well
    was drilled somewhat further back from the shore. This also was a hard
    water, but when it was first used, the old scale shelled off just about down
    to the bare metal, both in the boilers and on the cooling coils. Not until
    the old scale was practically gone, did new scale form.

    In a second instance, a power plant was using a water containing hardness
    and internal treatment with phosphate was used in the boilers. Then the
    wonder-working gadget was put in on trial and the phosphate feeding
    discontinued. To the astonishment of nearly everyone, the very thin old
    scale which had been on the tubes shelled off down to the bare metal. About
    six weeks later, two tubes failed, and on opening the boilers, it was found
    that they were badly scaled with a new and very hard scale. The gadget was
    thrown out; the tubes replaced, the scale was cleaned out by turbining, and
    the phosphate feeding resumed.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Feb 24, 2005

    REPLY:
    Reply to BMIR. 

    That is extremely interesting.  The manufacturers of these devices sometimes
    point out that after a while the system becomes acclimatised to the magnets
    and they should be replaced.
    The makers of electronic devices claim that because of the random
    frequencies of the EM fields no such effect exists.
    However how does applying magnets actually cause such a change.          
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Feb 24, 2005

    REPLY:
    Not familiar with the acclimation claim. Here is a tout from one magnet
    vendor:

    "The water conditioners are easy to install. No plumber; no cutting; you
    don't even have to turn off your water!
     No maintenance or upkeep required! Unlike conventional water softeners,
    there's no salt to add and nothing that requires periodic cleaning. 
     Nothing to break; therefore nothing to fix--ever! There are no moving
    parts, so there's nothing to wear out, to fix, or replace. 
     No external power of any kind and no batteries are required. The water
    conditioners use permanent magnets, which never wear out.
     Once installed, there's nothing to do: no knobs to adjust, no timers to
    set."

    By the way, have you seen the ad by the medicine man that sells a magnet for
    wine. "Pour inexpensive wine through one side of the FLAVORING magnet and it
    immediately becomes smoother and sweeter on the  palate. The bouquet has
    added depths and the nose a more distinctive character."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: brennans7
    POSTED ON: Mar 10, 2005

    REPLY:
    It's all bunk!

    Magnet's do not work.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Mar 16, 2005

    REPLY:
    What is your evidence for saying so ?  There has been quite a bit of
    published evidence in peer reviewed journals showing that under some
    circumstances it does indeed work
    See the links in my previous posting.My own experience with magnetic
    descaling has been  positive
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: TheTick
    POSTED ON: Mar 16, 2005

    REPLY:
    If it were true that magnets could remove calcium, then they could also
    remove sodium on the same principle.  Doesn't happen.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 16, 2005

    REPLY:
    First come I, my name is Jowett,
    There's no knowledge but I know it,
    I am the Master of this College.
    What I don't know isn't knowledge.

    How long should we wait for science to achieve certainty before we must move
    ahead with the timely, just, efficient, and reliable resolution required by
    modern society?

    For every Copernicus, there is the phrenology advocate and the alchemist.
    The truth may be relative, but there are certain things that we can
    definitely exclude as not being true, more likely than not.

    Pysillium, I have to disagree with your posts. The scientific consensus with
    >95 percent certainty is that these magnetic devices do not work.

    People on this forum can argue back and forth as to whether magnetic devices
    work or not. The bottom line is that there is not a single user or
    organization with a major investment (say >$100K) in water treatment
    equipment that uses one of these magnetic devices.

    If you are so sure of this technology, I challenge you to present your
    evidence. Provide this forum with the name and installation of a single
    significant user of high purity water, i.e. a power plant, a nuclear plant,
    a pharmaceutical plant, a semi-conductor manufacturer. As the movie line
    goes, "show me the money".

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 16, 2005

    REPLY:
    Consumer Reports magazine (Denver 1996) tested a $535 magnetic water
    treatment device from Descal-A-Matic Corporation. Two electric water heaters
    were installed in the home of one of the Consumer Reports staffers. The hard
    water (200 ppm) entering one of the heaters was first passed through the
    magnetic treatment device. The second water heater received untreated water.
    The water heaters were cut open after more than two years and after more
    than 10,000 gallons of water were heated by each heater. The tanks were
    found to contain the same quantity and texture of scale. Consumer Reports
    concluded that the Descal-A-Matic unit was ineffective.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Mar 17, 2005

    REPLY:
    Presumably  you are saying that the published papers reviewed in the links I
    gave in a previous post are either falsified or simply wrong.  Have you
    checked out the sites have you read the papers. Finally have you done amy
    work yourself on this phenomenon.  ASsI areadly said I have sone some work
    and find that magnets do work at laeast on teh water supplied to my house.

    I do not see (in reply to another poster) what your point is with regard to
    sodium.  Sodium as far as I am aware does not cause scale.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 17, 2005

    REPLY:
    Pysillium,

    Are you talking about this site?

    http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html

    This site says:

    "Many tests mainly utilizing single pass systems, however, have proved
    negative [212]."

    "A recent well-controlled study has shown that scaling can be reduced by a
    few percent by even one pass though a simple magnetic device but that it is
    difficult to increase this effect to more than about 20% even with extensive
    recirculation [259]."

    [259]C. Gabrielli, R. Jaouhari, G. Maurin and M. Keddam, Magnetic water
    treatment for scale prevention, Wat. Res. 35 (2001) 3249-3259.

    This is not exactly an enthusiastic endorsement. Would hardly call this
    important evidence.


    The other site that you mentioned:

    The School of Water Sciences at Cranfield University in the U.K. Their Web
    page http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sims/water/magnets.htm admits there is no
    accepted mechanism, but seems to accept that MWT works and offers a few
    references.
    It also says this "Reported effects of magnetic conditioning of water have
    appeared in the literature  since the late 1930's. These have usually
    related to Antiscale Magnetic Treatment, though there is some  evidence that
    magnetism interacts directly with microorganisms. Reported effects appear to
    vary widely, possibly reflecting variations in water quality, and the
    apparent lack of their reproducibility has tended to undermine the
    credibility of the process. The paucity of systematic studies of the
    phenomenon, independent of AMT device manufacturers, and the lack of
    recorded design criteria have prevented acceptance of the method by process
    designers and plant engineers.  The scientific literature is still unable to
    explain confidently why AMT works in some applications and not in others.
    Recent research at Cranfield has identified conditions under which magnetic
    treatment can lead to a maximum of 70% reduction in calcium carbonate scale
    formation. The degree to which scale formation is inhibited has been
    identified to be dependent on a number of physicochemical conditions such as
    temperature, pH, hardness and alkalinity. This work has also identified
    effects on pH, particle size, nucleation rate and crystal form."

    In your reference here:

    http://www.wrc.org.za/publications/watersa/2003/july/1423.pdIt

    The Summary and Conclusion of this report states the following:

    "The reason for this is the low reproducibility of results and the absence
    of a plausible mechanism to explain the working of the physical water
    treatment devices.

    The consumer report study mentioned above also debunks this flawed report.


    Do you have anything else?

    I repeat my challenge to you.

    If you are so sure of this technology, I challenge you to present your
    evidence. Provide this forum with the name and installation of a single
    significant user of high purity water, i.e. a power plant, a nuclear plant,
    a pharmaceutical plant, a semi-conductor manufacturer.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 17, 2005

    REPLY:
    One further point, it seems that Simon Parsons of Cranfield University is a
    paid endorser of this magnetic technology, so you have to question his
    objectivity in promoting them.

    Simon Parsons, senior lecturer in the School of Water Sciences at Cranfield
    University, one of the few others in the world studying the chemical-free
    magnetic water  conditioning process.

    http://watershed.net/mag-pool-spa.htm

    CRANFIELD UNIVERSITY
    SCHOOL OF WATER SCIENCES

    MRes Thesis
    Academic Year 1995-1996
    JOANNA ELIZABETH STARMER

    Magnetic treatment of swimming pool water for enhanced chemical oxidation
    and disinfecting.

    Supervisor: Dr. Simon A. Parsons
    September 1996


    b]I would like to thank the representatives of Magnetizer in the UK for the
    sponsorship of this project,


    I would also like to thank my supervisor, Dr. Simon Parsons, and Dr. Simon
    Judd for their assistance.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Mar 20, 2005

    REPLY:
    I was replying to the person who said that magnetic descaling is bunk.
    There is some evidence that in some cases it works.  I am not in the field
    and cannot give you details of any plant using magnetic descaling but as
    firms like CEPI appear to have been in the  business for many years they
    must be selling some to someone.
    I may be naieve but I find it hard to believe that a Senior Lecturer at
    Cranfield would display bias in his results.
    The consequences if found out would be far too severe.As a Reader in a UK
    University I have done a fair bit of consulting in my time.  On occasions I
    have presented my sponsors with results they did not like but to fake
    results just to please them is not only a matter of integrity but one is
    bound to be found out and lose all credibility if  not ones position. Dr
    Parsons results have been presented at several conferences and do not seem
    to have been challenged by anybody. I personally would certainly give him
    the benefit of the doubt.

    Finally I can give you this anecdotal evidence.  I have now been using rare
    earth magnets on the water feed line to my house for almost 6 years.
    In this time contrary to what happened hitherto, I have not once needed to
    descale my electric kettle(we Brits have tea all the time).  I have not
    needed to descale or replace my showerheads in this period although before
    they needed frequent attention or changing.
    The nasty yellow stains have disappeared from my shower room and show no
    sign of returning.

    The real problem is that there  is no generally accepted theory which is
    always a problem for scientists who love to be able to model things.

    I would say that under some circunstances magnetic descaling does work but
    as we dont know what are the conditions we cannot predict ab initio when it
    will.

    Another piece of anectodal evidence,At one time I worked with a Canadian who
    had been a partner in a Canadian firm selling magnetic devices, mainly for
    industry rather than for the domestic user.
    He told me that in many cases it worked but in a fairly large minority not,
    and they had no idea why.
    When I said  how could you make a profit on 35 % return (they offered a no
    quibble 100% money back guarantee)
    He replied that the devices they were selling for $3000 cost them $50 to
    make.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: orenda1168
    POSTED ON: Mar 20, 2005

    REPLY:
    Pysillium:

    In view of the decades of magnetic water conditioning touting, doesn't it
    make sense to you that, if this was a viable technology substantiated by
    proven performance, world-wide industry would have embraced it
    wholeheartedly in favor of spending enormous dollars on chemical scale
    control chemistries? It's one thing to scam an unknowing public....it's
    entirely something else to pull the wool over the eyes of industry who has
    far more to lose or gain, and is therefore much more discerning.

    To paraphrase Bimr, who has well stated the case against magnetics, the
    "proof of the pudding is in the eating"!

    Orenda
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 21, 2005

    REPLY:
    No one has said that anyone at Cranfield is faking results. Misleading is a
    better word. Mr. Parson presents extraneous, meaningless and unrelated data
    that make his various studies look important and scientific, but the studies
    always fall short of a conclusion that magnets work. Here is a typical study
    summary associate with Mr. Parsons:

    Summary of effects of MWT

    1) The pH of pool simulant solutions increased when organic compounds were
    present and decreased when they were absent.
    2) No changes in solution conductivity were found.
    Magnetizer comment: This is to be expected since there was no evaporative
    water loss.
    3) No scale was formed, so no conclusive results were obtained.
    Magnetizer comment: With virtually no make up water or loss, scaling could
    not be significant.
    4) The turbidity of the solutions increased by an undetermined amount.
    Magnetizer comment: If a filter would have been used in the test rig,
    particles could have been filtered out.
    5) No direct biocidal effects were observed.
    Magnetizer comment: Test was only run in 8 - hour day shift.
    6) The cell death rate of E coli was significantly raised owing to increased
    aqueous chlorine.
    7) Concentrations of free chlorine in solution were significantly increased
    by MWT at 0.8 and 1.2 ppm free chlorine doses.
    8) Concentrations of combined chlorine in solution were significantly
    increased by MWT at and 1.2 ppm free chlorine doses.
    9) Cell kill was improved at 0.4, 0.8 and 1.2 ppm initial free chlorine
    doses.
    10) Chloroform production was suppressed at 0.4 and 1.2 ppm initial free
    chlorine doses; at 0.4 ppm this was significant.


    As you can see, this particular study never states that magnetic water
    treatment does anything.

    Mr. Parsons is misleading because he can very easily design and execute a
    simple study to demonstrate the efficacy of magnetic water treatment. But he
    fails to do so.

    One would have to agree that it is unethical to be paid to do studies by the
    magnetic vendors and then to promote the magnetic technology. And the
    studies could hardly be called independent and unbiased. It is more like the
    old traveling medicine man handing out his bottled cure to heal all
    ailments.

    It is also interesting to note that Mr. Parson has stated that the other
    quack water treatment technologies are bunk, but not magnetic water
    treatment. He obviously does not want to kill the golden goose.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 21, 2005

    REPLY:
    pysillium (Electrical),

    I am trying to understand your arguments. You say that:
    1. You have no expertise in the water treatment field,
    2. You can present no evidence that magnetic water treatment works,
    3. You have anecdotal evidence from your household that makes you
    believe something is happening.

    Anecdote - An entertaining and often oral account of a real or fictitious
    occurrence: fable, story, tale. Informal tall tale, yarn.

    Many of the posters on this site have 20-30 years of experience in water
    treatment. Somewhat surprised to see that you continue to debate the merits
    of magnetic water treatment. Personally, I would deem it to be foolhardy to
    debate a specialist outside my field of expertise. One would not hire an
    electrical engineer to build a bridge, nor would one contract with a
    structural engineer to design an electrical substation.

    A few corrections to your latest post are necessary.

    A review of the Cranfield website shows that Mr. Simon Parsons is not a
    senior lecturer and appears to be a newbie with somewhat limited background
    in the water treatment field.

    http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sims/staff/parsonss.htm

    And I can assure you that there are generally accepted scientific principles
    in water treatment.  Water treatment is not some black box mysterious
    divining rod technology.

    Hoaxes have been around forever. Have you ever heard of cold fusion?
    Fourteen years ago, Drs. Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, then
    respectable electrochemists from the University of Utah, in a press
    conference, convinced a broad range of physicists that "Cold Fusion" was
    theoretically possible (March 23, 1989). Their dream turned out to be a
    snare and delusion. Just because you have a PhD does not that you will not
    fall for a hoax.


     

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: hydrae
    POSTED ON: Mar 21, 2005

    REPLY:
    pysillium (Electrical)
    To back up your evidence you have in your home, remove the magnets,  if the
    scaling comes back they may be doing something; I think your water supplier
    improved the treatment or switched the source close to the time you
    installed the magnets.
    Hydrae
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Mar 22, 2005

    REPLY:
    There is a lot to reply to
    1. How can a consumer report of 1999 debunk a paper written in 2003, which
    incidently appears to give the most positive proof that the method can work.
    I stress this becasue one of the variable which doesnt seem to be discussed
    is the composition of the water.  There is no one standard of hard water.
    It has been suggested in the literatue that it is the presence of silicates
    which cause the descaling to work which could accoutn why is appeares to
    work in some situations and not others.

    2. Dr Parsons is only one of may workers in his field see for instance this
    review.
    http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/magnetic.html

    3. As far my own expertise, I actually have published several papers in
    journals of Electrochemistry on the
    physical chemistry of electroytic solutions, I am more of a biophysicist
    than an electrical engineer.
    The water in my area has not changed, the hardness is still being quoted at
    25 ppm amd the electric kettle in the tea room where I work only about 300 m
    from my home and of course using the same supplier still scales up horribly
    very quickly.

    4. I presume that the other contributors to this forum are in the US where
    the idea of magnetic descaling appears to be completely rejected.  However
    in Europe it is  in some countries main stream with respectible
    manufacturers of other more acceptable forms of water treament also makiang
    and installing magnetic devices
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: TBP
    POSTED ON: Mar 22, 2005

    REPLY:
    25 PPM hardness? That's the square root of nothing. Great Lakes water
    usually runs in the 140 PPM range, and I don't know anyone who has, or
    needs, a softener for residential use. There are people who live just back
    from the lakes on wells, and that water can run 400 - 800 PPM. Now THEY have
    hard water issues...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 22, 2005

    REPLY:
    If the authors of the 2003 paper (which reports inconclusive findings) had
    read the consumer reports article written in 1999, they would never gone to
    the trouble of doing the 2003 paper. The consumer reports article covers
    essentially the same material.

    You can evaluate the hardness of your water supply by referring to the
    following chart.

    Hardness range,          Hardness Description
    (mg/l) as CaCO3

    0-75                     Soft
    75-150                  Moderately Hard
    150-300                 Hard
    >300                    Very Hard
     
    Chart taken from Sawyer & McCarty, Chemistry for Sanitary Engineers.

    You have a soft water that should not produce much scale when used in any
    appliance.

    In regards to Mr. Chaplin, I am sure Mr. Chaplin is a fine fellow, but from
    his online bio, I would hesitate to call him a water treatment expert. Even
    so, Mr. Chaplin results with the magnetic devices would hardly be considered
    to be positive proof of the technology of the magnetic devices. I quote
    "Many tests mainly utilizing single pass systems, however, have proved
    negative.".

    Concerning your tea kettle, is it possible that you have one of those Brita
    units with a built-in water softener? That may account for your experiences.

    http://www.brita.co.uk/action/products/kettles/

    The USA vs. Europe technology idea is a non-starter. I recently purchase a
    German made Miele dishwasher. It came with a built-in ion exchange softener.
    So at least the Germans do not believe in these devices.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: hydrae
    POSTED ON: Mar 23, 2005

    REPLY:
    pysillium
    One more response to your 22 mar post, item 3, How may pots of tea are made
    per day at work?  If they are like the typical office structure I am
    familiar with at least 5 pots of coffee for the one made at home and the one
    at home is only half consumed dumping the concentrated half the following
    morning to make the next pot; while the pot at work is set cooking all day,
    consumed to the last half cup, which is left to simmer and sometimes left on
    all night. 

    If you do not want to remove the magnets at your home to confirm your
    theory, install some at your work place. 

    Hydrae

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 23, 2005

    REPLY:
    Here is a June 2001 report that also debunks the 2003 paper.

    http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/techinfo/CPW/PWTB/082201_PWTB 420-49-34 Ma
    gnetic%20Water%20Treatment1.pdf

    If you read this report, notice that the complete water analyses are
    included, the test was run for 60 days, test log was submitted, several
    de-scaling devices were evaluated, and the crystalline structure of the
    scaling deposit was identified.

    The conclusion:

    The results of this study do not indicate any clear advantage for any of the
    three devices tested versus a control for the inhibition of mineral scale
    formation or the corrosion of copper. The test protocol was designed to
    simulate the method of production of hot water used in many larger
    institutional type settings that employ a shell and tube heat exchanger for
    the production of hot water. The findings do not support the claims of the
    manufacturers regarding the ability of their respective devices prevent
    mineral scale formation in hot potable water systems. The amount of mineral
    scale formed for the control versus device heat exchange tubes was
    relatively constant, and proved to be an effective insulator of heat
    transfer across the tube surface. The scale formed was found to be a type of
    calcite (calcium carbonate), and had the same crystalline structure for each
    heat exchange tube. There was no discernible effect on the crystalline
    structure of the scale formed by any of the tested.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Mar 24, 2005

    REPLY:
    Sorry in the units you probably use, the hardness is quoted at 730 mg/l.
    We dont make coffee only tea but I suspect that 4 years of making tea at my
    house is not much different than a few weeks here.  In any event there has
    been no significant change in the scaling rate over the last 12 years that I
    can recall.
    An important point made by one of the contributores is the chemical weater,
    I suspect ththat might be the key factor in deciding whether it is possible
    to get descaling or not.  One of the papers quoted by Martin Chaplin states
    that it is the presence of silicates which is important although another
    states that it is Fe ions which does the trick
    I dont see the relevance of Martin Chaplin not being a water quality
    engineer, he is listing and briefly reviewig what various papers say.  I
    have read some of the more recent ones myself and they do claim to find the
    effect
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: TBP
    POSTED ON: Mar 24, 2005

    REPLY:
    The conversion factor to go from "ppm" to mg/L is one. 25 ppm is the same as
    25 mg/L.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 24, 2005

    REPLY:
    pysillium (Electrical),

    Here again is Mr. Chaplin's quote on magnets, "Many tests mainly utilizing
    single pass systems, however, have proved negative." He is hardly a strong
    advovate of magnets.

    I would be interested in your comments on this paper:
    http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/techinfo/CPW/PWTB/082201_PWTB 420-49-34 Ma
    gnetic%20Water%20Treatment1.pdf

    Your water hardness value does not seem to be correct. The World Health
    Organization Guideline for hardness is 500, so I doubt very much that your
    hardness is 730.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 24, 2005

    REPLY:
    Here is the text of the consumer reports article from 1996:

    http://home.earthlink.net/~bimrone/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/de
    scal.jpg

    This was a 2 year test that proves the magnet devices do not work.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Mar 29, 2005

    REPLY:
    I have just two points to make.
    I have checked with my neighbours in the apartment block where I live.  They
    tell me that there has been no diminution of their scaling problems over the
    years.  So I am happy that the magnets I use are working.

    Experiments are being quoted some positive many negative,  However one
    cannot draw any overall conclusions as they appear to be using different
    concentrations and compositions of salts
    I only wish to state that under some ciumstances, magnetic descaling can
    work and to dismiss it entirely as snake oil or bunkum is being too
    dogmatic.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: cub3bead
    POSTED ON: Mar 29, 2005

    REPLY:
    I would like to contribute my $0.02.

    While magnets maybe perfectly fine for protecting your kettle; I have seen
    the consequences of magnetic treatment replacing chemical treatment in a
    large cooling tower. It was an absolute disaster. The owner bought the
    argument the snake oil salesman,oops magnet salesman's argument that it
    would save the owner lots of money. And it did initially, the owner didn't
    have to buy chemicals. But then the scale started appearing on the fill and
    mist eliminators and tower performance tanked because airflow was reduced.
    That is when the big $s hit the owners pocket due to higher plant energy
    consumption. The cost to clean the fill and MEs was huge and wasn't 100%
    successful.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: TBP
    POSTED ON: Mar 29, 2005

    REPLY:
    psysillium - Have you had any deposits analyzed to verify exactly what they
    are? Many people simply assume that ANY deposit they've got, is scale from
    hard water. (I've seen rusty carbuncles in galvanized water pipe called
    "scale".)

    Could you also verify just what the hardness value of your water is? If it
    is really only 25 ppm, then your deposits are due to some other factor, and
    the magnet is appearing to work, because there is no problem.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Mar 31, 2005

    REPLY:
    I really dont have much more to say except that the water here is
    notoriously hard.  The value of 730 mg/l is taken from a survey on water
    hardness in this area  When I bought a dish washer some years ago, it came
    with a test strip.  It indicated that the water was very hard indeed.  One
    has only to look at the various bits of piping you see thrown out by people
    doing renovations in this area to see how thickly they are encrusted with
    scale.
    I am not making any claim that magnetic devices work universally but in some
    circumstances they do work.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Mar 31, 2005

    REPLY:
    Pysillium,

    Look, all you have to do is call up the local municipal water supplier and
    the supplier will happily provide you a water analysis for free. That way
    you will know what you have.

    If you are not on a municipal water system, you can get a water treatment
    supplier to provide a free analysis for you. If your water is truly bad, the
    local water treatment peddlerss are probably walking your street right now,
    trying to sell their equipment.

    If all else fails, you can pay about $100 for a complete water analysis.

    And please, until you are able to submit some proof, stop saying that
    magnetic devices work.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: maven101
    POSTED ON: Apr 1, 2005

    REPLY:
    Hello, I am new to this forum. Our city department is doing a major review
    of energy consumption (and becoming more environmentally friendly) and the
    efficiency of boilers and chillers is just one of many areas we are looking
    at.
    Interestingly, we have looked at magnetic methods of reducing scale and
    concluded that there was not any good scientific evidence to support the
    claims. However, we have come across another 'innovative' technology that
    also claims to reduce scale without the use of chemicals or electrical
    energy. Unfortunately, this product has not been sold in Canada so it has no
    track results here. The company is H.O.P Engineering Ltd in Israel. Has
    anyone come across their "PTH Water Improver"? We are requiring a 12 month
    test but don't even want to start the process if we find that it's just more
    'snake oil'. Their website is www.hop-pth.co.il. Thank you for any
    knowledgeable replies you may have.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: orenda1168
    POSTED ON: Apr 1, 2005

    REPLY:
    Maven101:

    The PTH Water Improver is simply a take-off of what has been discussed to
    death here and on other forums. Either keep your money in the bank or use it
    for some proven and scientifically supportable scale control technology.

    Orenda
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: TBP
    POSTED ON: Apr 2, 2005

    REPLY:
    maven101 - Whether you have steam or hot water boilers, they'll most likely
    be for building heating. Hot water boilers (and chillers) supply closed
    loops. Unless you have leaks requiring on-going make-up water, there
    essentially be very little requirement for water treatment. If you have any
    glycol loops, they need to be checked at least anually as glycol can turn
    acidic over time. Steam boilers are the same. In building heating service,
    the steam that leaves the boiler should essentially all return as
    condensate. No make-up water, pretty much no corrosion or deposit problems.
    The only thing you might have with an ongoing requirement for make-up water
    would be cooling towers, and that is simply the nature of the beast.
    Overall, how much money could you spend on chemical water treatment in a
    year, with systems that are mechanically correct?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: maven101
    POSTED ON: Apr 3, 2005

    REPLY:
    Hi Orenda1168,
    I am no way defending this technology as it is completely unproven to us and
    so far have only viewed their website. I have been instructed to gather
    information to see if it should be investigated further. Is your reply based
    on a review of their claims or prior knowledge of this product? If you have
    a specific reason for your dismissal of this product that would be very
    helpful.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: maven101
    POSTED ON: Apr 3, 2005

    REPLY:
    Hi TBP,
    you are correct that a lot of our systems are closed loop and do not pose
    much of a problem. However, there are a wide range of other applications
    within our purview that are problematic. Where we are located there is a
    very strong environmental component to our decision making, and any
    technologies that can reduce/elimanate the use of chemicals must be
    considered. Reducing energy consumption is another strong requirement. Just
    in one of our community pools, some equipment had to be removed every 4-5
    months for descaling at a cost of $1500.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Apr 4, 2005

    REPLY:
    Finally I got my water supplier to give me their hardness figure   298 ppm
    see their web site
    http://www.hagihon.co.il/openTop.asp?str=9


    This is a website of a UK organisation of manufacturers of non chemical
    water conditioner devices.
    Some of them also manufacture quite conventional water softener devices and
    are big names in that business
    http://www.ukpwca.org/intro.htm
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Apr 4, 2005

    REPLY:
    Hello Maven,

    You can find the answer to your question on this page:
    http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: Apr 4, 2005

    REPLY:
    pysillium (Electrical)

    Have you ever asked yourself why Mr Simon is the only academic in the whole
    world who believes in magnets. Out of thousands of academics, you have one
    person promoting this junk. That should tell you something in itself.

    Regarding the website:
    http://www.hagihon.co.il/openTop.asp?str=9

    Is there an english language link?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: orenda1168
    POSTED ON: Apr 4, 2005

    REPLY:
    Maven101:

    Regarding your comment about the swimming pool equipment replacement because
    of scaling 3+ times a year at $1500 per occurrance, wouldn't it make sense
    to you and those who pay those bills to use a chemical scale inhibitor to
    prevent the problem. This is not new science, my friend, and it does not
    contaminate the pool, the pool water or the environment....the chemistry, of
    which there are several variations, is effective at controlling the problem,
    at a cost fractionally that of what is now being spent.

    Stop looking for the magic silver bullet that doesn't rely on sound
    scientific principals.....it does not exist!

    Orenda
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: ivanhoe374
    POSTED ON: Apr 4, 2005

    REPLY:
    Just an interesting case i had recently.

    An RO unit that we supplied (RO unit only) was scaling so they have put a
    "softner" on the feed line.

    The unit was still scaling so i asked for a water analysis

    Calcium Town Water:2.9
    Calcium After Softner:2.9

    Magnesium Town Water:23
    Magnesium After Softner:23

    it was then that i asked what sought of softner they had....and guess what!

    Having looked at the water analysis the problem is probably barium
    anyhow...we will be suggesting a sequestrant dosing system(which we
    recommended with the RO unit in the first place)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Apr 5, 2005

    REPLY:
    bimr
    I am an emeritus professor so that makes two academics.  Actually if you
    research the literature you will find others of whom Coetzee is the most
    prominent one.
    My own belief is from my own experience that they work on the water supplied
    in my area.

    There is no English link to their website, you might try translating it
    using Babel
    However item 6 is nitrate 7 is chloride 8 is hardness 9 is fluoride and 10
    is pH


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: TBP
    POSTED ON: Apr 5, 2005

    REPLY:
    pysillium - The burden of proof lies with those who support a given idea or
    device. And that burden in this case, is very much yours. The "doubters" do
    not have to do anything except ask questions.

    So far, we have been told that the hardness level of your water is 730, 25,
    and now 298. You do not appear to have THE fundamental piece of information
    required for determining the effectivness of devices that purport to deal
    with the hardness of water.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: maven101
    POSTED ON: Apr 5, 2005

    REPLY:
    Hi Orenda,
    well, you are certainly correct about the pool solution, we in fact changed
    the equipment which solved a lot of the problem, and of course we use the
    appropriate chemicals.

    Maven
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: maven101
    POSTED ON: Apr 5, 2005

    REPLY:
    Hi Bimr,
    thank you very much for that link. Incidentally, the author is local to me,
    so I will try and contact him directly.
    Maven
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: pysillium
    POSTED ON: Apr 6, 2005

    REPLY:
    bmir
    I dont need to prove anything.  I have no financial interest in these
    devices and as long as my apartment is clear from scale that all that
    matters. With regard to the figure of 25 that turns out to be grains per
    gallon  .  That was the figure I measured in 2001 usisng the test strip
    provided by the dishwasher manufacturer  The figure of 750 ppm came from a
    geological survey of this area as at that time I couldnt find the value
    given by my supplier.  The final figure of ca 300 comes directly from the
    website of my supplier and you have the address to check it yourself.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bioengr82
    POSTED ON: Apr 6, 2005

    REPLY:
    Why is pysillium's position still a point of discussion?  After four months
    with no significant proof (other than his tea pot has no scale), I would be
    inclined to say that none is coming.  It is mighty difficult to debate a
    person who's position is 'because I said so'.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: paxjds
    POSTED ON: May 3, 2005

    REPLY:
    Freije Engineered Treatment Systems at freije.com has electonic descalers
    for domestic/potable water, cooling towers, and boilers.  Their web pages
    spells out how it works. I have seen several installations and the results
    are  remarkable and worked as claimed. I hope this helps you.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    HANDLE: bimr
    POSTED ON: May 5, 2005

    REPLY:
    Paxjds,

    Prove it.

    Freije was already discussed and discarded way back on 2/22. 

    The Freije system appears to be a process that works on evangelical faith
    based principles:

    http://www.freije.com/faith/index.php

    As far as the real world goes, here is a quote from Frieje's: "The FREIJE
    Series E sends an induced oscillating electric field through the pipe wall
    into the water. This produces molecular agitation in the water in accordance
    with Faraday's law."

    This is all hocus pocus from a medicine man

    Frieje misrepresents Faraday's law. Faraday's law states that a magnetic
    field that changes in time can create an electric field!
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958


    <You can get an ion exchange water conditioner for $30.00???

    Yes. But you have to have $ changed to ions. Better have exact change. Them ions seem to fall right through my pockets.
    terry
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
    pretty basic.

    sorry. hit return instead of tab. sent this off. another try below.
    terry
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
    pretty basic.

    1" x 1/2" x 1/8" thick
    Grade N42 - Nickel Plated
    Magnetized thru Thickness

    about a buck and a half each. I use four, in two pairs if going around a pipe. each pair n-s attracting each other thru the pipe. place one pair on the line and a couple inches down the line place the other two. If the line is 1/2", just use them as they are. At 3/4 or 1" wrap each pair with steel something or another to get the field to pass thru the whole pipe. I wrap with some steel bailing wire.

    Must be done on non-magnetic materials. I can be done on steel pipe, but this involves perpendicular pole pieces and a lot of magnets.

    On my humidifer, the tray is actually plastic, so i taped two there, one s and one n surface facing the water. Their edges stick to one another, so they are easy enough to handle.

    Be careful with neo magnets. If they hit each other too hard, they can shatter.
    terry
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Ions, ioffs...

    iPhones.

    I believe :-) I believe it's time for another iBeer beer.

    As Jackie Gleason used to say early in his career,, "ALICE, to the Ionisphere!!!" He later increased it to the Moon. :=)

    I'll take my beer Ionized please :-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    And your problem with that is....

    The white stuff wipes off with a damp cloth, as opposed to using a pneumatic powered chipping hammer. O K, I exagarated... An electric chipping hammer :-)

    The important thing is that they keep the heat exchange process from being insulated by the caked on calcium process. And in terms of heat transfer, that is HUGE.

    Grab a sponge to clean off your chrome handled faucets... Get them while they're wet.

    ME

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • If they work why

    dont they get U.L. Aproval or even a WQA certification? A couple of hundred thousand would be peanuts for a device that would bury the salt based softner.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Not in their best interest...

    I can't speak for Superior, but can tell you that the U.L. label is virtually useless. (See Entran II)

    As for the WQA, they were successful in getting magnetic water conditioner sales BANNED in the same state that Superior operates its manufacturing facilities in...

    If I were them, I wouldn't join.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
This discussion has been closed.