It will take a lot more than plumbers...

ScottMP

are just as much the problem as managment. Everbody wants more and more and no one is at the wheel.

Scott



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John R. Hall

...to get us out of this toilet

The latest Big 3 bailout has folks ready to jump out of windows here in S.E. Michigan. I'm kinda glad I live in a one-story ranch. It's bad here, folks and most of the country does not feel sorry for us. I don't blame them but I'm not getting on a soapbox. Failure of ANY large company has a ripple effect across the community and right now this is a psunami. I'm not sure of the answers but Christmas is pretty bleak around here.

No ho ho.

RealCasinoGuide

How the mighty have fallen........

My heart goes out to all those hard working men and women who put their blood ,sweat and tears into an industry that is now failing them. The auto industry in the U.S.A. had always been the model of success for the rest of the planet and seemed to be invincible.

The paradigm can no longer support business as usual. The big three turned a blind eye when cheap, well-made cars began hitting our shores from overseas. We live in a throw away society. High quality fell by the wayside long ago because we didn't demand it. Millions of Americans saw this and voted with their wallets for a better car or truck. Guess who won this fight?

Change may happen slowly but it does inevitably happen. As a nation we all are facing a great challenge. We all must remake ourselves and embrace a new world. It's time to demand a better quality life from those we put into office. It's not enough to cast your ballot and just go home and expect that the system will take care of us. It has never (in my life ) been this way. We have an obligation to make a better life for ourselves and our brothers and sisters.

THE OLD PARADIGM IS DEAD!! Create a new and better one!

tommyoil

I'm glad....

that the union workers told them to stick their deal where the sun dont shine. Typical management response.....keep the golden parachutes in case the private jet is going down but screw the workers. Hopefully Obama will keep his promise to the unions of America and start sticking it to the execs. for a change. Maybe some jail time for the lot of them. What a bunch of criminals. I hope those workers stick to their guns but still find a way to emerge unscathed. Its sad that 20 year workers are being thrown under the bus through no fault of their own.

eluv8

these times

Unfortunately its not just the auto industry. If it were I wouldnt be so concerned. People are not working and people are not buying. I think we are in for a tough 2009. BUT I think as a whole we need some tough times to remind us where we come from, whats important and start looking beyond ourselves. Take care all.

jackchips_2

I'm

with you Scott.

Senator Corker of Tennessee seems to have a real good plan which requires everyone to cooperate in order to get us out of this fiasco.

All chip in or all go down with the ship-not much of an alternative!

Jack

Anna Conda

There's a reason why Lex Luthor was re-imaged as a corporate top-dog :-P We got super-villains a-plenty in the real world, too bad they don't wear silly costumes, they'd be a lot more entertaining.

lee_7

bail out

I am not anti union, but when they would not take a pay cut to keep their jobs, then fire them all. From what I have read, they make good money with some very lucritive benefits. These are tough times for all, so who will bail out the small man when he has difficulty? All employees, big and small, of any business that gets a bailout from the American People should or should I say must make some kind of cut whether it be a pay cut or benefit cut. I know my benefits keep going up along with expenses but pay stays same. We, the American People, can not continue to give these big companies money hand over fist. Where is all this money coming from? There is no more in the well, the money tree is dead, cut down and burned for heat already.

let them file bankruptcy, reorganize, fire the upper ups and start all over again.

John R. Hall

Show support

One way to show your support is to buy stock in Ford and GM. I did via an online trading account a couple of weeks ago. I figured for an investment of less than $100 I was doing something to help -- with very little risk. I plan to buy some more as Christmas gifts for the kids. Heck, I have already doubled my meager investment in two weeks and I suspect the stocks will remain a pretty good investment. Maybe there still is a flicker of hope.

Jack Smith

The fault starts at the top and goes all the way down. The big three screwed up, both management and labor. Their demise will not be the end of the world, it will be the start of a new era. They are all getting what they deserve, this is a result of greed from the top on down.

ScottMP

Jack

If thats the guy I heard speaking at the first meeting I'm with you. Is that the Senator who asked about paying people when the plant was shut down ?? If so, thats the guy .

Scott

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joel_19

john

The stock in Ford might not be too bad but i'd be running from GM and Chrysler. My bet is Cerebus just breaks Chrysler up sells Jeep junks the rest. Mercedes bailed from that deal just in time.

While i feel bad for the guys loosing their jobs They do hold some responsability can any of you imagine paying your guys for MONTHS while there is no work?? A week maybe.

Management are all idiots for 20 years everyone has known they needed to restructure the dealer agreements,get rid of a lot of dealers and get rid of several models lines. Why didn't they do this 20 years ago THEY KNEW it needed to be done.

The big 3 have been on life support since the late 80s. SUV's kept them alive in the 90s now that markets gone and they are toast.

Here's my question John. Lets say you guys up there get the bailout ok fine. Now next quarter GM will have burned that money and they will either need more or file 11. Why spend all that money to just delay what's gonna happen in 16 weeks anyhow.

To get the money GM should give a time line that shows in the next 16 weeks how they will do the following.

Stop paying workers that aren't working.

Get rid of at least 3 maybe 4 brands.

Call up around 3000 dealers and tell them sorry guys no more cars (Too many dealers beating each other up weakens all)


Those are bare minimums for them to turn around. Will they have the cojones to do what they should have done 10-15 years ago???

Answer, probably not. So why give them the money?

This problem was predicted many times if you really want to learn about it read "The End of Detroit" it's facinating for anybody who loves cars or buisness on exactly what not to do.It also follows the right and sometimes wrong moves made by the transplant companies. The transplants (Honda,Nissan,Toyota) made plenty of mistakes along the way some pretty stupid. The difference compared to Detroit is they took the problems head on and fixed them. While the Detroit boys just stuck their heads in the sand.

No one bailed out all the fabric and clothing and machine mills up here in Mass. in the 70's.LOTS of people out of work.In most small towns 1 mill supported most of the towns people. We had to reinvent ourselves not keep dying industry on life support. Detroit needs to do the same.

jackchips_2

That

is him, Scott.

Quite the theater when he got the UAW head to say he'd have to check the contract to see if it was true.

There are not going to be any winners in this but there is the potential for many losers if we don't start working together.

Jack

Baltimore/Maine Doug_3

If I remember correctly

health care cost for GM are over $1500 per car, Chrysler at 1400 and Ford 1100. The others much less. I think my Jeep will be the last of the big 3 I buy.

Mitch_6

one sick fact

Gm and Toyota made roughly the same amount of cars and sold them worldwide. Toyota made 17 billion profit GM lost 34 billion. I think we need Ellen Rohr here.

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John R. Hall

Preferential treatment

The government bailed out the the overpaid hedge fund execs without much of a whimper, which left the door open for other bailouts. It may not be right but the iditots in Congress set the table for others to pull up their chairs and get a few crumbs.

Yes, I read the 'Death of Detroit' and it is very illuminating but I tend deal with where we are going rather than where we came from.

Joe_136

The way I see it, it's not so much the big 3 were making bad cars, were paying the help too much, and now suddenly they can't sell cars- it's the fact that if no one is financially secure no one will buy a car or any other big ticket items. So, it's not so much Detroits fault as it is the folks that caused the problem in the first place~ Wall Street.

I think it was greed on Wall Street which has caused all this crap in the first place. Real Estate was right in there at number two. They go hand in hand. Build more houses and sell more houses. Resell those loans into that giant ponzi scheme and funnel them all up to Wall Street and sell them as something else.

While they were at it, they sold insurance to the buyers of that bundled crap- but they couldn't call it insurance because if they did, it would have come under gov't. scrutiny and the investment firms would have had to had the cash to back up the insurance they sold.

They didn't call it Insurance, instead they called it "Credit Default Swap". Problem was- all they did was sell the "insurance" stuff and didn't bother to have the cash to back it up! Then you end up in the situation we have today.... folks lost their jobs, defaulted on their loans and there was no mortagage insurance money in the til to pay the "mortgage" holders.

It cascaded on down from there into what we have today.

Joe_136

The way I see it, it's not so much the big 3 were making bad cars, were paying the help too much, and now suddenly they can't sell cars- it's the fact that if no one is financially secure no one will buy a car or any other big ticket items. So, it's not so much Detroits fault as it is the folks that caused the problem in the first place~ Wall Street.

I think it was greed on Wall Street which has caused all this crap in the first place. Real Estate was right in there at number two. They go hand in hand. Build more houses and sell more houses. Resell those loans into that giant ponzi scheme and funnel them all up to Wall Street and sell them as something else.

While they were at it, they sold insurance to the buyers of that bundled crap- but they couldn't call it insurance because if they did, it would have come under gov't. scrutiny and the investment firms would have had to had the cash to back up the insurance they sold.

They didn't call it Insurance, instead they called it "Credit Default Swap". Problem was- all they did was sell the "insurance" stuff and didn't bother to have the cash to back it up! Then you end up in the situation we have today.... folks lost their jobs, defaulted on their loans and there was no mortagage insurance money in the til to pay the "mortgage" holders.

It cascaded on down from there into what we have today. If the job market was as good as it had been, it wouldn't matter if all they made were gas guzzling Humvees and Cadillacs- we would have still bought them.

Right now even if all the car makers could make nothing but Prius type fuel efficient vehicles at a relatively cheap price and they still wouldn't be out of the woods.
If you are financially insecure, you aren't going to spend that money.

I hate to say it, but I don't see any good coming from giving the big 3 any money. And, I think a reason the bailout is failing is because the GOP wants to put a knife thru the heart of their nemesis, the UAW, plain and simple. What a better time for them to do it- make headlines about how much a UAW man earns compared to a Nissan worker in Tennesee, or something like that. I don't want to see any of my union bretheren lose their jobs, but I think they will and it is a GOP engineered fiasco.

tommyoil

Thats beautiful.....

fire the working man so they execs dont have to give up their trips to Aspen. I'd love to see just ONE of the suits down on the assembly line for a shift. If it werent for those Unions, the workers rights would have been trampled a long time ago(the same way the American people are being trampled now by having to fund a bailout). Theres nothing lucrative about those union contracts. In todays economy, their wages are helping them keep their heads just above the water line. I'd rather see my neighbor as a union man than an unemployed man whose job has been shipped to Indonesia. Keep buying those hondas and toyotas and Viessmans and Buderus and toyotomi and on and on. Ship the money overseas then go out and thank a vet. Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing. Thanks but no thanks. I try to make it AND SPEND IT here. I know its a wild idea, but at least I try.

PS_3

Please - management, labor, and the consumer are all culpable. Politics on both sides is a constant. Everyone pointing their finger at somebody else instead of having integrity and taking responsibility for themselves is why we are where we are at. It's unfortunate that some will suffer more than others, but we all will be hurt one way or the other - including our children, grandchildren, etc. I hope that in the end this country (and its' citizens) get off the path we've been going down for the last 40 yrs so that my children and grandchildren don't continue this downward spiral.

lee_7

I read in paper today that the average worker for the big three cost, including all the union benefits, $70+ hour, will the imports are running around $48/hr. That is a HUGE difference. Would you be able to survive charging $22+/hr morr then your competetion? Why do you think people buy "foriegn" cars, better, cost less, and most are made in the USA. While most of the big three cars are made out of country, in Cananda and Mexico.

There is no true AMERICAN car anymore, so please don't tell me to but American made cars. I drive a Dodge, and if I remember correctly it was made in Mexico and even though I have been out of school for a while, Mexico has not become the 51st state.

Just my .02. We all most adapt and overcome. these are hard times for everyone and I just do not think these bailout are going to work.

joel_19

that book

Was great i've read it a couple times. What's sad is it came out a few years ago and did anyone in detroit change anything after it pointed out the road they where on???

Nope they didn't do a thing so why should we think they will now.

Even if the unions gave stuff up and got more in line with the transplants GM would STILL be loosing money!!!! less but loosing.

If the bailout would solve something great but John I must be missing something if they get the money how will they be profitable in few months? I just went to the auto show and saw nothing on the GM stand that interested me other than the Corvette(sweeeeeeet!!).

The union caves,ok fine they will still loose money.

They get rid of Pontiac ok fine,they still loose money.

They get rid of 1000 dealers,ok fine they still loose money.

Hey if these guys had a reasonable plan i think alot of folks would be ok with it but so far no real plan.

Why is there GMC and Chevy trucks??? In some magazines they advertise BOTH what a waste they are the same things with different grills. Save some money loose GMC as well as Pontiac,Hummer,Saab. Keep Caddilac and Chevy.Buick and Saturn are a toss up.

klaus

Free market society?

Aren't we a free market society? What business does the government have stepping in with any bailouts, financial or auto?

Your point is well taken John about the financial bailout. The government had no business doing that either IMHO. Since they did that though I think we're well on our way to financial recovery right? It worked so well for the financials why not do it for the auto industry too, right? If my little company of a hundred workers or so were to start failing would we get the bailouts too? I already know that answer.

Pardon my sarchasm John, It's not directed to you, but I really feel the govt. has no business in any of this. If I'm irresponsible with my money I go down the tubes. I must make sound reasonable financial decisions for me and my family. The difference is if I DO fail there's no one there to catch me with a bailout.

Joe_136

Another forum I frequent had a fellow write this....

"At the end of the day, if workers aren't unionized it is because they have nothing to gain by doing so... conversely if workers need to unionize, that is a clear indication of management incompetence. It may be painful but the whole company must be allowed to implode as the unions are the not the problem, merely one of the outcomes of the core problem."

I think that hit the nail square on the head.

Wethead7

several problems


The problems with the big three are,people without money or access to credit,poor management, poor labor agreements,competitors that received support form foreign governments.

Chrysler would be in a better position if Daimler did not strip it of it money making assets. Daimler made several poor choices and then sold it off. Look at what Daimler is doing with Sterling.

Most ashain auto makers received support in the eighties and nineties from their governments.

All parties involved need be at the table. In most cases they are not.

Mike

michael_34

I know one thing folks...

We are getting f@#$ed! This all happen in 1929, Bankers and corporations got rich and the working class struggled to survive. I grew up in the Detroit metro area. All my family is in Michigan. Most worked (some still do) for one of the big three. The big three have sat on the hill getting what they want for a long **** time. They never returned anything back to the community. They pulled out a factory, leave workers to hang and a community destroyed (Flint MI, Highland Park, MI, Detroit MI).
My Grandfather was trapped inside the Ford's rolling mill in March of 1932 while outside his friends (so called communist) where killed and beaten by Ford hired thugs, all so they could feed there families.
They could have built better vehicles in the 70's and 80's, but they didn't. Toyota and Honda came in and kick there butts. They could of built cars with high fuel efficency, but they didn't!
I feel sorry for my Uncle who is retiring this year from Fords after 35 years as master electrician (and he does not make 70 dollars hour with health bennies! Check your sources!) I have six cousins still at Fords and another uncle retiring from Detroit Diesel (GMC).
I do not care about the big Three. I care about my family.
Michigan has one of the highest cancer rates in the nation. It is one of the most polluted states mostly, but not all by the big 3 and it's sub contractors. The big three has never looked out for people of Michigan!
I don't know what the answer is for my home state, I love the land and the people, but I could give 2 sh#ts about the big 3. They had there chance to be responsible for this planet and it's people and greed was their choice.

lee_7

he might not make 470.00 plus benefits, that is what the cost per man hour was stated as. The "foriegn car" makers have about $48. per man hour. This included salary, benefits, taxes, unemployment, etc, not just the worker's actual pay. Given big business more money does not help anyone. All it will do is delay the envitable.

mel rowe

I am one of those auto retirees who have already seen a steady erosion of our benefits that we worked 35 years for, and we face a lot more jeopardy in the near future. I'd like to clear up a few of the misunderstandings that have been prominent in the media. First, UAW workers do not make $74/hr. in wages and benefits. The real number is closer to $54/hr. compared to the transplants at $44/hr. The higher number includes all the costs of retirees health care and pensions lumped in with it. Hardly a fair comparison, but one that was picked up by the media and shown and accepted as reality. In addition, the Union has prev. accepted a two tier wage structure to reflect the need to get closer to the $44 at transplants, without immediately taking money away from long time employees dependent on that level of pay. This is just one of numerous changes that were in progress in response to the need to be more competitive. And speaking of being competitive, we were always expected to be fully competitive with anyone in the world in the areas under our direct control, namely quality and output per hour of work. As we achieved these, however, we were still not fully competitive because of differences with foreign competitors related to taxes, OHSHA requirements, environmental requirements, and the worst of all--the exchange rates, which have been manipulated to death by the Japanese and now the Chinese, in order to promote export to U. S. All of this is of course under the guise of "free trade". We don't need free trade nearly so much as we need fair trade. We're the only country in the world that allows other countries free access to our markets, without similar opportunity in their markets. When Japan first started shipping large quantities of cars here, we were unable to sell in Japan. The reason was that they claimed that they had to protect their consumers from potential bad quality by essentially taking apart every car we shipped there and then reassembling it to assure the quality. Needless to say, no one could afford the cars after all that, so we gave it up. This same situation has caused us to lose much of our manufacturing base to other areas of the world, which is very bad for us in the long run because manufacturing is where wealth is created. We cannot continue to be a world leader and economic power if we let all our manufacturing move elsewhere. And in spite of all the many problems in Detroit, much progress was being made toward downsizing, closing factories, cutting costs, and becoming viable, until our Government's lack of a good energy policy bit us with $4 gas and the credit crunch that was also caused largely by the Gov. pushing for everyone to be able to get a mortgage loan. This loan policy, that started during the Clinton admin. ultimately resulted in all the sub-prime loans that have gone bad and brought on the credit crisis that was the final straw that caused the Detroit automakers to have to seek Gov. assistance in obtaining loans to carry them through to better days.

Jamie_5

pay rates

Just for the record, that $70+/hour figure does not represent the wages and benefits of an employee for one of the big three. Instead, it includes the total cost of retiree benefits divided among the current work force. Because there are a lot of retired auto workers with health and pension benefits, the total retiree cost is high, accounting for $15 or more of the $22/hour difference. Attributing those costs to the current workforce is somewhat misleading.

The following link gives a concise explanation:

www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

Gordy

Great depression

Wall street was the bubble which helped to start the great depression.

The roaring twentys was a euphoric economic excess people enjoyed due to the speculation of wall street. That era before the start of the depression had strikingly similar qualities of what we have enjoyed up to this point today.

The great depression started because government chose to let things work themselves out with out intervention.

Clearly government has learned from the past, that no intervention is not the way to get this economy out of its present crisis. Its to bad that we let history repeat itself to this point.

The bailouts which are just getting started are needed to prevent total economic collapse "depression". Infrastructure infusion is a bailout as well. All though infrastructure is desperately in need of some infusion.

FDR did what Obama is going to do, but if you look back to FDR days this country did not really pull out of the depression until WWII. Clearly the war machine was the key, but I'm not saying that is the answer.

It took 10 years to pull out of that tail spin, I suspect we will be half of that.


One other thing... The government chose to deregulate. All the checks, and balances that were put into place after the great depression were removed by our government from the Regan era forward. In the name of prosperity... So who is the blame???

Gordy

[Deleted User]

Don't be naive and buy into the union vs. non-union rhetoric that exists to distract from the real issues. Union contract raises are usually based on the consumer price index which is not representative of the cost of living increases. I'm taking about an 8% loss this year WITH my raise. We have all, union and non-union workers, been taking losses. If you understand inflation, currency devaluation or monetization of currency, you will know that what is happening with the economy is inevitable. Fractional reserve banking and Central banking a.k.a. The Federal Reserve were never meant to benefit the average person. Go back to 1913 and research who was behind the Federal Reserve Act. The Creature From Jekyll Island is a great resource, though a bit lengthy at 600+ pages. History is repeating itself and will continue to if we don't shut off the boob tube once in a while and get involved in our government. We the people - need to be united and not divided by union or non-union. Afterall, we are all getting the shaft and they're getting the gold mine.

RonWHC

It's not fixable

in anything like its present configuration. Let it go. Someone(s) will pick up the pieces. Some economist (name escapes me) called it creative destruction.

What would be laughable, if it weren't so tragic, is to listen to politicians, who have been kicking the domestic auto industry (& taking their money)for the last 30 years, crying crocodile tears about folks who will lose their jobs & pensioners their benefits. Goes under the heading of "unintended consequences."

Just like the CRA the same types forced on the banks. Guess they never thought massive fraud, by buyers & lenders, would get in the way of buying votes. More unintended consequences.

Watch out for the next big economic killer. That's when government employee benefit programs start to collapse. Fortunately for governments (Michigan is a prime example), they can force taxpayers to pay for their stupidity. Wouldn't the Big 3 like to have that stick?

More government programs can't get us out of the mess they got us into. If they could, it wouldn't have taken WW II to get our economy moving after 1929. All FDR's programs couldn't turn the trick. Now, looks like we're going to do it all over again. George Santayana. Where are you?

Gordy

Recession

I find the coined phrase of "choosing not to participate in a recession" laughable.

Tell that to the unemployed,foreclosed on, bankrupt consumer. The only participation they can take is a roof over their head, and food on the table....maybe.


If supply, and demand are not equal economic collapse is certain.

Spreading of wealth is the only way. That means that companies have to make their products more affordable by taking less profit. OR Wage equalization from the CEO down to the person on the line. Thats why unions were created to help insure that happens.

Gordy

PS.

No CEO is worth millions of dollars a year to help make a company successful. They are only smart enough to surround themselves with smarter people making six figured instead of seven figured salaries a year to do the work for them.

michael_34

I think a group of plumbers can do a lot!

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
Margaret Mead
"If people don't believe one person or thing can make a difference than they have never been in a tent with a mosquito (the quote goes something like that!)

Rollie Peck_3

The economy

It appears to me that part of the problem is the global
economy that we are now part of. Fifty years ago, workers weren't competing with people in Asia or in Latin America
who can live on a few dollars a day. Too many Americans have been able to afford luxery cruises, homes, vehicles etc. for so long that they consider it to be a birthright.
Our high standard of living, compared to other parts of the world, is part of the reason for us pushing for higher
wages. Our higher wages are now pricing us right out of the
market. They are what gave automation such a boost 10 - 20
years ago.
Several years ago, the state's oldest Ford car dealer
closed because he couldn't sell cars made by people making $20 per hour to people making five dollars per hour.
Just before the imported car popularity, the Big Three
answered the economy car demand with cars that looked cheap and felt cheap (remember the Pinto?) because the Big Three couldn't make as much money on them as they could larger cars. When the Honda Accord came along people were paying several thousand dollars over list price and waiting
up to a year to get one, because they looked great, drove
well and were economical to drive.
I believe that the time has arrived that us Americans
are going to have to learn how to live on less income. This adjustment is going to be painfull, especially for the poor and the middle class. American businesses are going to have to learn to live on less also, especially those with grossly overpaid CEO's and corporate jets. Some of them probably won't survive.
The quicker we adapt, the better off we will be.

Rollie Peck

Homeowner

Gordy

Global economy

The great depression was a global event in that era. All though today markets are deeply tied to the American economy.

You are correct in what you say. The same excess was created in the roaring twenties from an over inflated stock market. Today it is a combination of the market, and the housing bubble that created the over inflated wealth.

Think of how hard tourism to other countries alone will be hit by the cut backs in spending. That is just one facet of this global economy.

Prosperity will rear its head again it is but a cycle in events of the economy.

Gordy

Maine/Baltimore Doug_6

My estimate

is a minimum of 3 to 5 years to begin to turn around. The last three trillion we have recently added or are in the process of addding to the debt will have some unintended consequences.

>>>Prosperity will rear its head again it is but a cycle in events of the economy.<<<

Gordy

Wrren Buffet strategy

I don't know if this is an exact quote, but Warren Buffets market strategy goes something like this....

"When people are fearful its time to be greedy. When people are greedy its time to be fearful"

[Deleted User]

The powers that be won't be happy until they have a global currency in place. If you look at the rest of the world, they are hurting also. This is not just Americans spending recklessly. The dollar has been losing it's value since 1913. That is why so many people have to buy on credit. Look at Iceland. That's just a preview of what's to come here. Once the hyper inflation kicks in and people can barely afford to feed themselves, they'll beg for mercy. Then the idea of a global currency will be offered as a way to 'prevent that this would ever happen again'.