Adding Flue Damper to Old Boiler?

Jerry Mann_2

Yeah, it's amazing what we live with. I don't intend to debate the need for LWCO and other safety features, but I guess I need to justify my decision to not yet replace the beast. If a steam system has worked (inefficiency aside) for 80 years, I would think it can be safely maintained as such. A homeowner with a "no-frills" system such as mine need to give it all the attention warranted to avoid problems. I no pro, but I am very aware of the boiler and whole steam system and how it's doing. Also, I am home most of the time to give it an eyeball.

Regarding "One leaky vent is all it takes," I can't imagine a leaking radiator vent causing trouble... but maybe a mainline vent? I imagine the danger is all the steam output to the leaking mainline vent would be lost either as steam or condensation on the floor, thus eventually the boiler would run dry? I would think this might take a long time?

Thanks for the input from everyone. I am leaning toward saving sheckles for the new boiler... but for now I guess it's just plastic and caulk on windows.

Jerry

Jerry Mann_2

Adding Flue Damper to Old Boiler?

I realize there are many other considerations before investing money in a 82 year old boiler, but... I am trying to reduce heating costs this year, short of dropping $10,000 to replace the boiler/ abate asbestos.

What flue damper would anyone recommend for a 1926 ARCO Ideal Round Boiler? It is a coal boiler converted to natural gas. I believe the flue is 8". I have a standing pilot light.

I appreciate any replies.

Jerry

Steamhead (in transit)

Sure, it would work

and I like these dampers. But in your case, that would be like putting lipstick on a pig.

Those old round boilers were notoriously inefficient. They just don't have enough heat-transfer surface. One of my Dead Men's Books says not to expect better than 40% efficiency on oil with such a boiler, and they would probably do as poorly on gas. They never did that well on coal either.

In your case, I'd bite the bullet and get the boiler replaced. The ROI will be much better.

Is this a steam or hot-water system?

"Steamhead"

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Unknown

Vent Dampers are not

allowed for use on converted equipment.

Jerry Mann_2

vent damper on converted equip

> allowed for use on converted equipment.



Is this a national code? I am in Ohio. Thank you for your information!

Jerry

Jerry Mann_2

type of system

Thanks for your reply... I have a one-pipe steam. No auto feed, low water cut off or any of that stuff. Just high pressure shut off, which worked in a test 4 years ago.

Thank you for the opinion... but, I cannot see shelling out the money for a new boiler right now. I KNOW I will make it back pretty quickly, but reality won't allow it! How much money are we talking for tear-out, including asbestos abatement (boiler has a full wrap, plus piping throughout basement), and installation?

Anyway, if the other person is correct that Code does not allow a flue damper on a converted system, this is moot.

Jerry

Unknown

Read the installation

instructions for the conversion burner. Conversion burners are installed in accordance with ANSI Z21.8 latest code. All of the conversion burners list in their installation instructions that vent dampers are not to be used.

Check with your local code officials they may allow them in your area. If you do install it make sure it is interlocked to prevent the burner firing unless the damper is open.

Is the control system for your boiler 24 volts or powerpile self generating? Is it a power burner if so what is the make and model number?

Jerry Mann_2

my conversion burner

Ha ha! Instruction manual! sorry... no offense. I think the burner is from 1932-- honestly. The house was built in 1926 and there are note of coal deliveries on the coal room door up until 1932 when the owner began notations for Gas. This sounds unbelievable to me, but who knows! I could go look at the name on the burner.

The control must be 24v. as there is a power converter attached to thermostat and pilot/burner controls. The burner is just a very large circular flame with a standing pilot below it. I can manually fire the boiler without electricity by holding up and turning a valve on the bottom of the burner control.

Thank you so much for your help and your interest. I don't want to waste too much of your time. It is obvious I am keeping a dinosaur alive. A friend of mine says it is worth it to keep it alive, for historical value, and he also says the boiler could outlast two or three new boilers, thus the reason to keep it. Sounds like a gamble!

Jerry

Steamhead (in transit)

No low-water cutoff?

THAT's scary, besides being a Code violation. One leaky vent is all it takes...... I'd add a LWCO before a damper, if the damper is even allowed. Better yet, a new boiler, which would likely have a probe-type LWCO instead of a float-type that would have to be blown down every week. You can't put a probe-type on an old round boiler.

When you replace that monster, we should save the burner for the Heating Museum.

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Unknown

As one who has been in the gas business for

over 50 years I am curious as to what burner you have in your boiler. If you do not mind a Make and Model. I would imagine this boiler does have a Low Water Cut Off perhaps a McDonnell Miller Model 67.

There are things that can be done to your old boiler to bring it to peak efficency with out spending a lot of money. If a few pictures could bee taken maybe I can give you some tips.

Bob Harper

replacement

With energy costs where they are, do the world a favor and replace that monster with a new efficient unit that is tested and listed as a system with a new warranty.
Just my tuppence...

nicholas bonham-carter

at least let's make it safe

forget the damper, and put on a lwco.it would be an unusual event, but one with very unpleasant consequences were it to continue to fire dry!
the usual other advice applies:
keep your pressure low [or at least know thine pressure!] some adjustment to the burner to keep the pressure low and MAY, or MAY not improve the burner/boiler efficiency. maybe a vaporstat would help to moderate the effect of a burner which may have been oversized in its youth.
checking the insulation of the pipes would also help.
another point to consider: maybe you have a large amount of natural gas under your house.-you might need it--nbc

Jerry Mann_2

Conversion Burner...

It is a Premier Gas Conversion Burner, SN346, MODEL R-1, MAX BTU INPUT: 160,000 , MIN. FIRE POT DIAMETER: 20 IN.

The attached pix are of burner valves in box, and burner on and off.

I have more shots of the whole boiler, if interested!

thanks... Jerry

Unknown

That is an old

Eclipse Burner labeled Premier.

From the photos your flame is very poor and probably making a lot of Carbon Monoxide. Those burners by todays standards are dangerous and need to be done away with. It is an atmospheric burner and needs a lot of excess air to burn safely and efficiently. It is an accident waiting to happen especially with no low water cut off, I am suprised there is not one as most of even those old systems had a low water device of some kind.

I strongly recommend you replace it with a modern steam boiler. You will be shocked at the savings on fuel costs and the overall efficiency gained along with some definite safety.

Steamhead (in transit)

Tim's right

after seeing that flame, it's obviously time to retire that thing. Doing so MAY cut your fuel consumption almost in half. Remember, Carbon Monoxide is not only toxic, it's also unburned fuel.

Nice photography!

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Jerry Mann_2

More Pix and Questions...

Tim & Steamhead, thanks for all your expert advice. I know it takes time and thought to view and reply. I am not avoiding the replacement issue, it's just that your diagnosis of my burner's flame really interests me, and wouldn't mind a few more exchanges.

The winter we bought our house it was a struggle to get even heat to all radiators, we had a hot radiator one day, then it was cold the next, etc etc. Next November (2003) we brought in a pro who helped us figure our EDR (111,070). He measured the boiler input by reading the gas meter and came up with 90,000 BTU in. Then he adjusted the burner so the boiler input is 160,000 and that is how it stands. He said he was pushing the limit of the burner's capacity, and did say while I watched, "Don't do this at home." Ever since that adjustment, plus new main line and radiator vents, the system has performed beautifully. At the time I went from ready to scrap the ARCO, to really appreciating how well a 77 year old boiler could operate. The original system worked with vent return piping and Hoffman #3 radiator vents (is this a "differential" system?). Our heating pro said that system may have worked with coal, but not with gas. I bet when they switched to gas in 1932 they left the #3's. Amazing that this system may have been troublesome for 60 odd years! When we moved in many of the #3's were still in place. I eventually replaced them with Hoffman 1A vents, except there is one hold out in the breakfast nook, and that radiator is one of the hottest in the house!

Back to the flame, are you concerned about the orange color at the top of the flame? Or is there something else you see? Keep in mind a still photo will catch a split second of the flame motion, so that orange lick may look dramatic but it doesn't resemble too closely the flame in real life (I do photography for a living...). The is definitely orange at the top but not huge areas of orange like the photo shows.

I appreciate your letting me pick your brains. My heating guy takes a lot of questions but I hate to drive him batty with all of my inquisitiveness. I am including a few more pix of the boiler, mainly for kicks, but if you see something of interest let me know. You will see some vintage stuff here. Perfect Pressure Control & ARCO Pressure Gauge. Return piping with (L to R): a) sediment leg and vent return pipe, b) water feed pipe, c) check valve and d) drain. Old check damper and pressure damper regulator. Plus a bonus shot of the firebox showing the lead "safety" plug which supposedly would melt if the coal burning got out of hand and would drain the boiler onto the coal bed to put out the fire! Wow. This is exciting stuff. I love this old stuff and want to learn more about it.

Just let me know when the intervention will be.

82 years and counting,
Jerry's Boiler

Unknown

Jerry I have worked on a number

of these old timers over the years. Yours is in great shape and I truly understand your affection for it. Show me a boiler today that will last 80 years.

My concern over the flame is not so much its color (orange in a flame is not an issue) but the fact that it seems to be floating around and I assume with door open to take the pictures. If the flame is yellow that is an issue.My real concern is that these boilers over the years tend to get alot of leakage air into the process which tends to cool the flame and give very high readings on CO which is not good for efficiency but also bad if it gets into the living zone.

By the way it would not be hard to install a low water cut-off on the existing setup.