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New Steam Boiler, many new problems...
Michael Bourque
Member Posts: 11
Actually, Norm is supposed to take a look next week. I spoke with him briefly and feel confident with him. I will keep you posted.
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Comments
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New Steam Boiler, many problems...
All,
I decided this year to switch over to Gas and to install a new boiler. I have a great contractor, and someone I trust. However I have had many issues since the install and am working with the contractor on these.
However I wanted some advice on my problems...
Water Bang:
To relocate the boiler, the contractor re-piped the system to the headers. There are a lot of elbows, and horizontal pipes without much incline that go to the header. When the system starts up, there are a lot of banging noises. I understand this to be residual condensate in the pipes and the elbows which are hitting the hot steam.
Cold radiators:
There are a few radiators upstairs that just don't get heat on only one of the cores heat up. I have all new air vents (vent-rite #1, and Heat Timer) and they are working properly. I removed the radiator and poured out 2 cups of water. I also made sure the radiator was on a slope which it was. I disconnected the radiator to see what kind of steam came out of the feed pipe. It was very wet steam and was spiting water along with the steam. Also lots of gurgling sounds.
Cycle Time:
I live in a 1500 sq ft home with 13 radiators. Its not a huge house at all. The system as it is now turns on for 1.5 hours before it starts to make a difference. This seems like a awful long time and will cost me $$$. I would expect the system to get to temp and get those radiators hot real fast.
Insulated pipes:
When we moved in 2 years ago, I had the asbestos removed from the basement heating pipes. I never bothered to replace the insulation until I read this site. I have started to insulate the pipes, but I am not sure the difference it will make. The pipes all get very hot already.
Vents:
I don't have any main vents (as far as I can tell). I have a one pipe system with 2-1/2inch mains. There are two small vents near the boiler on the return. Are there supposed to be main vents anywhere? It take a very long time for the radiators upstairs to get heat. I have dry returns.
What to do now?
My contractor says this boiler needs to be cleaned of sludge and that this is my problem. He has drained it several times already. I am insisting now he add "squick" boiler cleaner to get rid of the sludge once and for all. I have asked the contractor to re-pipe the feed to the mains and make sure all the pipes are inclined at bigger slope. I hope this will get rid of the banging noises.
Any advice? Anyone willing to help. Like I said, I trust my contractor, just wanted to see what everyone thinks.0 -
new boiler
Michael,
I am just a home owner but it is clear your new system has problems. In your small house the system should be relatively quiet and take no more than 30 min for the radiators to start to feel warm. When I replaced my boiler I added chemicals - big mistake, all kinds of banging. I had to drain/flush the chemicals out. It should run fine with just plain water.
Take a bunch of photos and post them here so people can help you figure this out.
TR0 -
Post pics of the boiler piping
Also, the boiler needs to be skimmed, not just drained. Save the squick for now. And insulating makes a huge difference. It probably won't fix your problem, but it is important.0 -
From your description it sounds like what was done on my system.
First thing I'd do is get Dan's books. (See "A Steamy Deal" at the bottom of this page)
I had a new boiler installed 7 years ago and it never worked properly. I spent a ton on money on "experts" and was about to give up when I found this website and Dan's books. They're easy reading and crammed with facts and information which enabled me to finally get my steam system straightened out. Dan's books are a "must" for anyone who owns a steam system.
Get the boiler manufacturer's installation manual and read it. Keep in mind that the installation manual recommendations are usually the minimum rather than the optimum. If you don't have the installation manual take a look at the boiler manufacture's website. They have them available there.
As someone mentioned insulation on the headers coming out of the boiler and the mains is important. When I replaced my boiler I had my asbestos insulation removed and the installer told me that I didn't need new insulation as "it would heat the basement and the heat would rise into the house". Big difference when I finally got them insulated. However wait until you get the piping straightened out first. A couple of evenings of reading Dan's books will make it very clear to you what you will need to do.
Single pipe steam is a very simple system which works well and is easy to maintain. You just have to follow certain rules and principles when installing it. It's much more than just connecting pipe from "A" to "B".
As was already mentioned, post some pictures of the plumbing from your boiler. Take the pictures in high resolution and from all sides, so we can see what has been done.
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Need to post pictures here
Mad dog
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What I learned here . . . .
We had our boiler changed out last summer.
I drew up a list of specifications and requirements based upon all that I have learned here over the years. More than once I had to redirect the plumber as he was working, since I don't think he read Dan's book closely enough! We ended up with a 'right sized' steam boiler that is seems to hear well, and the only sound we hear are some of the pipes and radiators expanding when the steam first reaches them.0 -
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Still more problems
All,
Thank for your help but the saga continues.
I have just posted some pictures. Here is what the contractor did:
1) Drained the system
2) Refilled and added "Surgemaster" powder
3) Repiped the near boiler pipes (See pics)
4) Ran system for 1.5 hours
It has made a small difference but I have these problems still and some new problems:
1) Lots of Banging sounds when the system starts
2) Systems runs for a long time before any heat comes
3) Surging - When cold the level almost to the top of the sight glass. However when it runs the water drops too low causing the autofill to start which puts too much water back in. It seems like the levels are at odds. Too much wet steam in the systems?
4) When the system runs, water starts to come out of the pressure relief valve.
Also the water is supposed to be green after using "Surgemaster". It was green for a day but now it is brown (See pic). The instructions say to add more. I was recommended to use "Squick" which is supposed to coagulate the oils/sludge and let it fall to the bottom of the boiler. However they did not use that. Any advice on that?
I am starting to run out of patience. Please see my pictures. Any help advice is much appreciated.0 -
new boiler blues
don't worry, you are in good company.here's my list of things to do:
1.compare the steam piping you now have with the diagrams in your boiler installation manual, to see if it conforms to these minimum requirements, for pipe size, length, and layout. it's a little difficult to see exactly what you have in your pix.
2.put insulation on the steam pipes from the boiler to the vents. even at the risk of starting a controversy, i recommend using [as a temporary measure] fiberglass batts[no bubblewrap!] taped round the pipes. this will be easy to remove, if you need any modifications to the piping later-then you can use real pipe insulation.
3.get a low pressure gauge [gaugestore.com 0-5 psi]. you will then know what your pressure is, which is probably too high. for best results keep it below 16 oz.[you may need a vaporstat]
4.get some good quality vents for the main, where it comes back to the boiler; and protect them from water-hammer as described in dan's book, which hopefully you have already ordered.
5.check your thermosat for proper anticipation and placement.
"skimming" is essential as a final step to dry steam.NO STEAM BOILER SHOULD EVER BE PLACED IN SERVICE WITHOUT THIS PERFORMED. "squick" is not a substitute for this.
after you and your installer have solved these problems, you will be amazed how quiet, even, economic, and engaging your system is.--nbc0 -
Michael, I hate to say it but from the pics, the piping is all
wrong for near boiler piping. The steam main should come off the boiler go up appx 20" above boiler top and then turn 90 and pitch downward to back of boiler and on the horizontal steam main the supply should take off then past that toward back the main line should elbow down and reduce to the equalizer line to drop down to the return connection. With a tee appx 2" below the water line appx for the return to tie in. It looks like all this is backwards and not pitching right. Look at the install manual under pipe drawings and you will see what I am talking about. System will never work right the way it is I would suspect. Tim (PS, I am commenting based on the pics which are pretty descriptive but not definitive, so if I am missing something in pic I could be wrong but highly doubt it)0 -
bad piping
michael ,from a look at your pics was this system a counter flow system meaning all your steam piping pitches back to the boiler ,i see you also have some wet returns looks like your hartford loop connections nipple is way to long ,it also looks like you need some one who is very familar with steam piping and knows what they are doing to correct you steam piping ,looks like you could use a drop header with a few out lets and then seperatly drip those back pitched mains and tie together below the water line and i would also recommend moving those main vents back about 1 ft instead of having them on the tees like that ,looks like you need a real steam guy and i don't think it will be cheap peace and good luck clammyR.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating0 -
Rough drawing of what near boiler pipe should be
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Re: New Steam Boiler, many new problems...
Yes - this is a one pipe system to each radiator, and the pipes slope from the boiler and eventually makes its way back the return.
I am in the Boston area. Does anyone know of anyone who I can consult with?0 -
Pics from Manual
I need to find a scanner to get better quality pic, but this is near boiler piping from the manual.
From the manufacturer and from what I can tell, there is supposed to be 24" distance from the water level to the first elbow off the boiler (first horizontal run). That appears to be correct when the boiler is hot and running, however sometimes the water line is higher when cold.
The manual also has an alternate piping setup:
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pics
The second drawing is a more of a drop style header which most of us prefer. your boiler water is very dirty and should be skimmed from the top not drained out the bottom.
We cover metro west and fix those all the time. we don't cover north and south shore so it depends where you are0 -
Michael-
What Make and Model is your boiler?
I can't again stress highly enough that you need to get Dan's books!!! They are one of the best investments I've ever made. They go into detail what needs to be done for a good steam installation. In an evening or two you'll be able to diagnose exactly what your systems problems are.
They aren't engineering texts, they are written for the homeowner and are crammed with details and explanations about steam systems and how they work.
Single pipe steam is really simple but it has definite rules you must follow. Most heating men don't understand steam and think you can just hook up "A" to "B". That's a recipe for disaster!
From what I can ascertain from your pictures your piping near the boiler is a a large cause of your problems.
Read this link:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=91
Note the diagram and read down this page as it mentions the need to use the close nipple so the water can't get up speed and slam into the other side of the tee where it joins the Hartford loop as this will cause water hammer. (You see this need for this close nipple mentioned time and time again in steam literature) What I see in your picture named "Dry Returns" (elbow, short nipple,union,long nipple)amounts to very long nipple so I can only think that this has a great chance of causing serious water hammer.
In your picture marked "Steam Valves on the Returns" those are vents. I can't tell from your pictures where exactly they are located. Referencing the drawing in the above link, there should be vents (Main Vents) in your system at the end of each main (marked in the drawing,"steam supply main")just before it drops into the dry return (marked "drip connection")
Your radiators are connected to the "steam supply main". These main vents allow the air in the mains to be pushed out by the steam and when the steam hits them they close and the steam continues up the individual pipes to the radiators. Like the mains these radiators must be vented to allow the air inside to be pushed out by the steam. Main vents have very large orifices and vents on the radiator are much smaller. If your main vents are missing or inoperable the vents on the radiator try to vent air from the whole system. As this takes much more time it delays the steam getting to the radiators if it does at all. (Radiators take forever to heat up.)
The returns from each main need to join together in the wet return before the vertical run to the equalizer.
As for the steam side of you boiler. You need to have it done as in your picture "alternate plumbing". Here's a link to picture of a good dropheader that was done by Boilerpro
http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?Martin New Steamer 005sm.jpg&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=35977
This picture and your installation manual should give you a pretty good idea of what you need. Note: The header needs to be pitched towards the equalizer. The equalizer (per Dan's instructions) should be no less than 1 1/2 inch pipe. The elbow at the end of the equalizer should be the same size as the header and point straight down before it is reduced. Note also that the steam pipes leading up to the mains (only one in the picture) are connected to the horizontal header`pipe AFTER the two steam risers from the boiler but before reaching the equalizer.
As I mentioned before I was in a very similar situation to yours. My new boiler system never ran properly. I had several heating people work on it and nothing improved. This went on for over three years and I was about ready to quit then I found this website and Dan's books. First I got my boiler piping straightened out and then fixed my main vents and then the radiators. My system runs smoothly now though I still am fine tuning it.
I might also mention that at first I was rather hostile towards the heating guys that had worked on my system as I thought I was getting ripped off. Now I understand it 's just that very few people (heating pros and owners) really understand steam systems. Steam is really very simple, you just have to understand it.
Hope this of help to you.0 -
well done rod!
your typing must be so much better than mine.
you are really carrying the torch for steam, and for all of us in the world of steam!--thank you--nbc0 -
Re: pics
Rod,
I have a burnham independence. I am so thankful you take the time to write. As I write this I am awake laying in bed reading the boiler manual. While its not exactly like the mfg the picture, I do think the piping is close to right - gee I dunno.
I don't have Dans book yet but plan to buy it. I am also listening to my radiator gurgle as I suspect I am getting wet steam and too much water has left the boiler and its surging. Perhaps this in turn causes everything to be inefficient.
Thanks so much for the advice - I'm a little overwhelmed and am confused.
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More about my system
Let me see if I can describe my system.
I have 4 mains (big pipes)
#1
This goes across my basement (though the chimney to be exact) and there are many connections to my radiators. At then tail end of the main, there is a reducer pipe and from there the pipe is smaller and heads back all the way to the boiler. Just before it drops vertically to the boiler there are those vents I had shown. They are very close the boiler and far away from the tail end of the main. The main is sloped down.
#2
This main goes to the other side of my basement and the follows the walls of that side of the house until it comes back the boiler in which it reduces and drops vertically with a vent next to #1 vent. Again, the vent is not at the tail end of the main, just right before returning to the boiler. The main is sloped down.
#3
This is just one radiator main and it slopes up instead of down so condensate can return. No vent.
#4
This is just for on radiator as well but main is slopped down. It reduces right after the radiator hookup and returns back to boiler with a smaller pipe. It also has a vent right before it drops into the boiler.
When the system starts up I hear a lot of air coming from the radiators. The air is cold. I think your diagnose is right. No real main vents???
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Looking for steam specialist
I decided I want to consult a steam specialist in my area. Someone who can sort this out for me.
I emailed a couple of businesses from this site. If you are a steam specialist or know of one and can help please contact me. I am 20 minutes from Boston Mass.
>>>
I would like to schedule a consultation with you about my Steam Boiler. I just had it replaced and feel that the near boiler piping is wrong. I have all the typical problems of a new install such as surging (priming), water bang, wet steam, etc. I have done some research, and starting to feel I already know more than my installer. I need someone I can trust that has experience in the art of steam.
Please email me at michael.bourque@gmail.com. You can also read about my problems on the heatinghelp website:
http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=60922&mc=15
Regards
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Thanks
I want to thank all of you for taking the time to help me here with diagnosing my problems. The saga continues and this is the not the end. However I just have to say how grateful I am to find such a group of passionate steam people that love to help people out. Without you, I would not be informed and would have given up.
The deadmen would be proud!0 -
Re: Thanks
...and today I just bought Dans books. Perhaps one day, after my problems are solved, I will be able to help another steamy soul.0 -
Hi Michael-
Sounds as though you are on the right path! You mentioned that you have ordered Dan's books..very good! Once you have read them it will be like switching on the lights in a dark room.
Start with "We Got Steam Heat" as it quickly gets into definitions and then read "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" as it goes into steam systems in greater detail. Learn the function of each item in a one pipe steam system and how they work together. It helps to think of your self as a molecule of steam and visually think of your journey through your steam system.
I would wait until after you have read the books before doing anything more on your system as the tremendous knowledge you will gain from the books will give you better guidance of what needs to be done whether you do it yourself or enlist the aid of a pro.
While all I'm saying is covered in Dan's books, I'll just mention a couple of things.
Boiler piping: In your picture named "alternate piping", which is a "drop header", the risers coming out of the boiler are piped with what is called "swing joints". Swing joints are the use of multiple elbows so as to allow movement of the pipe during expansion. You may have noticed that your boiler is made up of sections (like slices of bread) which are bolted together. If the piping coming out of the boiler is rigid (as in the first piping diagram using tees) when the pipe / boiler expand it puts strain on the "sandwich" joints which may cause them to fail over time. It's just good practice to use swing joints and only cost an elbow or two more.
It helps if the header pipe (the horizontal pipe that the risers connect to) is larger than the risers coming out of the boiler as this slows the velocity of the steam down so it is less likely to pick up water. I might mention that the risers coming out of the boiler should be as large as possible (not reduced down) Always keep in mind that the manufacturers recommendations are minimums rather than optimums.(Unfortunately it has come to this in order to get the lowest bid) Also the steam side of the piping must be in
black iron pipe with cast fittings. You can use copper on the returns but copper on the steam side is a "no-no"!
(You seem to be ok on this but I just thought I'd mention it.)
Mains: Wow! I have no idea as to why your vents are installed that way. It may have been part of a different type of steam system originally. Maybe one of the "steam pros" on here might have an idea. One of the problems you run into with old steam systems is that "nutty" modifications have been done in the past which now make absolutely no sense and are just confusing.
What you are interested in is getting the air out of your mains so the steam can get to your radiators. A main vent is normally located 12 to 15 inches from the end and minimum 6 inches above the main. This measurement is to help prevent water getting into the vent. If the vent is positioned right at the end of the main it is likely to get slammed by water traveling the length of the main and won't be operational very long. The brand of main vent favored on this site seems to be Gorton.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=302&brandid=
with most using the Gorton #2s. (Gorton #2s have 3 times the venting capacity of a Gorton #1) Depending on the size of the mains multiple vents maybe necessary. However in your case 1 vent per main should do. As the steam in your pipes is low pressure (less than 2 PSI) you can just tap a hole in the top of the pipe for the vent. Again be sure to mount the vent a minimum 6 inches above the main. If getting this measurement isn't possible then remote it a bit with elbows etc.
Might make a note here on steam pressure- Steam systems work best on low pressure. The lower the pressure the better the system works. (This is all expanded in Dan's books.)
The item that would concern me is your # 3, the radiator with no main/return. This is a counter flow, that is the water condensate is going in the opposite direction from the steam, while this can be made to work it isn't ideal as they both interfere with each other with the possible results of wet steam at the radiator. It would be better if it could be attached to one of the mains and the water lead away to a return like the other radiators/mains or possibly attaching it separately to the header. If you notice the radiators are connected to the mains at a 45 degree angle in either of the top quadrants. This is so the water condensate can trickle back into the main rather than getting "dropped" in. If the condensate was dropped in at the top of the main it would be hit by the steam flow and contribute to wet steam. If this radiator is connected to either a main or the header, it should be at this 45 degree angle.
Radiator vents: These are either fixed or adjustable. Here some links to different manufacturers:
http://www.gorton-valves.com/specify.htm
http://na.heating.danfoss.com/Default.aspx?MenuUID=cf0f50d9-834a-4bc5-bc8c-a5f8b54f4cff
http://www.maconcontrols.com/pdfs/OPSK1204.pdf
http://www.heat-timer.com/?page=varivalve
As I have mentioned before radiator valves have much smaller orifices than main vents. The Gorton's are a fixed size orifice and are sized by number. Danfoss and Macon are TRVs (Thermostatic Radiator Valves) and are temperature adjustable. The Varivalve have adjustable orifices.
Skimming: If the boiler water is contaminated with dirt or oil it needs "skimming". There should be a skimming port on your boiler to do this. The skim port is located at about the normal water line level and many plumbers ,not knowing what it is, just put a pipe plug in it. It should have a nipple attached to it with a cap on the end. This is the safest way to do it. Since my kids are grown I don't have to worry about someone playing with it and so have a ball valve on mine instead.
Oil comes from the manufacture /installation of the pipes or boiler. Even a very thin film of oil on the surface of the water`causes a problem. With clean water, steam easily transitions though the surface of the water, but with oily water, the steam has to build up pressure to push (burst) through the greater surface tension of the water. This causes an eruption of water vapor into the steam above the boiler water resulting in wet steam. Skimming is draining off just the oily surface water through the skim port. It is done cold or slightly warm (never with steam) by adding makeup water very s-l-o-w-l-y and draining the overflow (and oil) slowly out the skim port. (I'd did it for on hour or two at a time on several Saturday mornings). It usually takes multiple times to get it get it properly skimmed. It makes sense to learn to do this yourself as otherwise you're paying out multiple expensive labor hours to have a "pro" just standing around.(especially with the multiple return calls this can really add up!!)
Additives to the boiler water don't seem to be very popular among the steam pros on the board. It is important to keep the boiler water at the right PH and also be aware that fresh water has a lot of oxygen in it and can over time damage the boiler. Dan explains all this. I just thought that by mentioning the items above that it might help you when you get to reading his books.
Edit: - Just had a thought: Michael- you might want to take a look at Gerry Gill's website
http://gwgillplumbingandheating.com/
If steam heating was a religion, Gerry and Steve would be Cardinals!.. Take a look at their steam pages, especially study the steam installation pictures. I learned a lot from them.
NBC- If you are reading this, thanks for the complement! As this site and all the knowledge from the guys on it (like yourself)have helped me so much I just felt that I needed to try to pay it back in some way.
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Michael, I'm just curious. What is the capacity of your boiler and the pipe size of the riser from the boiler? Am I correct that I only see one riser from the boiler, when the installation seems to show two? I'm asking only because of my own experience with high velocity, wet steam from my boiler that was installed with only one riser. I had to re-pipe and add a second riser and that still did not get the velocity down to the range some of the board members recommended, which was around 18 ft./sec.0 -
Re: New Steam Boiler, many new problems...
Melrowe,
I am not certain how to tell the capacity is. But your right. the installer only used one riser. The manual said that one of the risers was optional.0 -
Re: New Steam Boiler, many new problems...
Rod,
I have so many people telling me now that the near boiler piping is wrong. Time is crucial for me so I contacted a local steam expert.
They have already confirmed (as you have) that the near boiler pics are an indication that its piped wrong. I have an appointment on Wednesday and they will tell me once and for all what is wrong and what my installer must fix.
I will keep you posted. Cant wait to get the book.0 -
Last night was a bad night for my boiler.
Last night was a bad night for my boiler.
I woke up to all sorts of noises. When I went down to the basement in the morning the boiler was on and was throwing a lot of radiant heat. The sight glass was empty and the system was banging and surging. I went upstairs and noticed water leaking from my ceiling! Water was coming out of my radiators and started to leak.
I shut the system down right away. I phoned to have the installer come out to house again. He came and drained over 10 gallons of boiler water before the sight glass started to show at the half way point. He continued to drain off more water which was the color of chocolate milk (solid brown). He refilled the boiler with new water to the half way point and fired up the boiler.
Right away the autofill came on! This must be malfunctioning as it should only fill when the LWCO is triggered - right?. We shut off the auto feed and watched the system get up temp.
The radiators seemed to get to temp - but it took a bit long time. Some radiators did not get any heat even after and 1-1/2 hrs.
While is was running and at temp - just to test the steam I pulled the pressure releif valve and was surprise NO steam came out. Is that right? I would expect steam to escape when pulling this valve. Could there be something blocking it? I also noticed that the pressure gauge never moved off the pin. However the system did seem to stop surging and the house did get warm - just not all the radiators.0 -
Hi Michael -
Sorry to hear you are having such problems.
A couple of questions:
1. What is the model number of your Burnham boiler?
2. Could you take some more pictures (at different angles) of the piping coming out of the top of your boiler?
Today I blew up and enhanced the pictures of your boiler.
While I wasn't able to observe everything, from what I can see you going to have to reconfigure your boiler plumbing to make it work properly. Since you already probably have most of the parts necessary it shouldn't take too long to straighten it out.
Sorry to hear about your problems with the automatic water fill. You've experienced one of the reasons a lot of people stick to manual valves. Some people even use spring loaded valves (take your hand off-it closes)like those in a public restroom just so they can't go away and leave the water on.
A lot of people are using this model of automatic feed as it has some good built in safety features. It also has a counter so you can tell just how much water has been fed into the boiler.
http://www.hydrolevel.com/new/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=
Having been through almost the same situation as you I can understand the probable frustration you're experiencing.
(At one point "fixing" my steam system with high explosives crossed my mind!
)
Hang in there, with Dan's books on the way, you will soon be straightened out.
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Michael, send an email to Glenn at below address, he may be able
to help. Send pics of near boiler piping, get a good side view of boiler piping showing the steam header off boiler along with the equalizer drop to return and also where the steam main takes off header. Maybe Glenn could talk to your installer about the pipe up deficiency and you can get this ball rolling before waiting until late this week. After pipe change, installer will have to skim and skim to clean up water line. That is another problem your having. I think w/ good pics, Glenn can be convincing to your installer that it is not right and must be fixed. Tim
gstanton@burnham.com
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Not crazy about the header piping at all
Very amatuerish as far a The Steam goes. That being said. The boiler and system is probably still filthy. Did this guy even look at the Manufactures drawings the come with the boiler? Sorry, but I have to keep it real.....Mad Dog
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Scott Milne is your best bet
Mad Dog
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The manual to my boiler also said one riser was optional, but after calculating the steam velocity, it was very clear that was totally wrong. Dan's book gives a formula for calculating steam velocity. If you take the net btu/hr and divide by 960, that gives the output in lbs. / hr. Then assuming 1 psi stem, you divide by the internal area of the riser. Which if it is 2 in. would be 3.36. So if your boiler was rated at 180,000 btu/hr and divided by 960 equals 187.5. Then divide by 3.36, the velocity would be 55.8 ft./sec, which is way too high to get good dry steam. If you add a second riser, then you divide this result in half. With steam velocity up in this range you are really blowing a lot of water up into the mains and throughout the system. I had that same problem, and had to add a second riser, a 3 in. header, and then even downfire my boiler also, to get the velocity to a decent level.0 -
piping layout
some one else had a lennox boiler [made by dunkirk]with problems.
the lennox manual showed only 1-riser, but the manual for the same dunkirk showed 2!. probably a typo of a serious nature.
we are probably better off increasing the size and number of risers of any steam boiler piping. --nbc0 -
live young dead men
Try Norm Harvey (www.ind-oil.com) 781 812 1472
He re piped my system and its been running like a top since. We are north of Boston and even though Norm is south shore he made the trip 3 times-one for an estimate, one to do the work and one to skim/service the boiler. My only complaint is well no complaints0 -
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We got steam heat - The book
They finally arrived! I just got Dan's books (a steamy deal)!
If you'd been following my saga here, the suspense was just killing me. I kept waiting by the door to see if the mail truck had the books. Would the snow storm delay the delivery? Maybe it would get lost?
If you ever saw the movie "A Christmas Story", it was like waiting for little Orphan Annie to come on the radio. I just couldn't wait to get my hands on those books.
I stayed up all last night to read the first book "We got steam heat". It's a great read - Dan is such a great story teller.
It has an interesting cover with an illustration of a frustrated old-time character banging his fist against a steam radiator. At one point my 9 year old daughter saw the cover and asked if I was reading a kids book. Could I read it next? She said. My oldest 11 year old daughter waited up late in hopes I would finish as she now wants to read the book too!
Anyhow I just wanted to say that it all makes sense now. I am off to read the other books, but now I finally get it.
If you haven't got the books, I would really recommend them.
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Success!!!
All,
I read Dan's books, took all of your advice, and even talked live to a few of you on the phone...
SUCCESS AT LAST
I insisted on the installer coming back to reinstall and re-pipe my boiler per the MFG specs (Drop Header). It's only been one day - but it has made a HUGE difference.
Here is what I insisted on fixing:
- Follow the MFG drawings
- Repipe with a drop style header
- Used both tapping (was using just one)
- Used the proper size equalizer pipe (was undersized)
- Used a close nipple on the wet return (was all wrong)
- Removed bad counter flow pipe that was dripping back into the main riser
- Fixed pipes sloped in wrong direction
- Used three separate risers instead of just one.
- replaced all steam main vents
- Insulate header pipes
Now all my problems are gone:
- Heats the house up quick
- No more banging
- Dry steam
- Efficient
- No surging or priming
I would like to thank all of you for getting me out of this mess. Without your advice and wisdom, I could never had done this and I'd be stuck.
I'd especially like to thank 'Rod' - he went the extra mile and really took the time to teach me all about steam. I'd also like to thank Dan Holohan for creating this great site and for writing those books.
I hope to hang around the board and learn more, but more importantly try to help others who have fallen into the steamy trap that I found myself in. There's a way out - you just need to listen and learn about steam.
The Dead Men would be proud.
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awww man.... don't
Awww man, don't leave out the pictures!
We Wallies need them!
Glad you were able to get the problems solved!0 -
Pictures
Just wait to post your pictures until the new site is up.0 -
0
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