New (old) house radiator issues

saussyHen

I went back to the house to check it out (can't stay in it because it's too cold). The "cut in" appears to be set to 2.5. I wasn't sure where to read the "cut out" setting. The pressure gauge on it was reading 2.5 psi when cold and around 7 psi when the valves were spitting.

I believe those sound high, but I will continue searching the site for more information.

saussyHen

spitting vents, short riser piping, radiator nuts too big

We are currently moving into a new house (probably ~100 years old) that has some steam heating issues.

Background: One-pipe system with a boiler replaced in the last year or two. We just had the floors refinished and in order to do so I had to replace the shut-off valves since the ones that were there either leaked like mad or didn't shut off completely.

Here are my issues and my suspicions.

1) some riser pipes are now too short because of combination of a few things:
- the holes that the radiators had dug into the floor were filled in with wood putty by my floor guy.
- I'm trying to use metal/carpeted coaster-type things under the feet of the radiators to prevent them from digging in again (adds maybe 1/8 to 1/4" in height)
- When I put the new shut-offs on, I didn't have the radiators sitting next to me and I cranked them down pretty tight (with the 3' wrench that I needed to use to get the old ones off). I'm afraid I lowered them by tightening them too much. If I loosen or re-dope and don't tighten so much, will I get leaks?

I had some luck replacing one riser pipe with one that was 1/2" longer since the riser came out when I tried to take the valve off anyway. With the other short riser, I'm concerned that some other joint will loosen if I attempt to replace the riser (2nd floor). Any advice on replacing 2nd floor riser pipes?


2) My 1" pipe radiators connected fine to the new valves (the nut on the radiator). My 1 1/4" pipe radiators did not. The valve fits the riser fine, and the "spud" (is that what it's called?) seems to fit into the radiator side of the valve, but the nut is too big. It can simply slide right over the threads on the valve.

I had luck with replacing the spud on the radiator on one of them. I tried a spud wrench, but it just stripped the nubs inside the pipe because the pipe seemed a little large. Eventually, I flattened the spud and got it loose with my 3' wrench. I put the new one in (threads matched and fit) and it seems fine. However, see #1 above (riser is too short Now, on two other radiators, I did not have the same luck. I cannot get the spud to loosen at all and there is very limited space to get ahold of it due to the nut getting in the way. Is it possible to cut the nut off to get a better grip on the pipe (spud)? What would I use to cut it?

3) I currently have most valves shut off (due to #1 and #2 above) so I'm not sure if that affects this problem. Two radiators (on the same main) on the 2nd floor are spitting water from the vents like mad. I'm pretty sure they did before I started any of this (judging from water marks on the floor). One of them has a new vent (adjustable type from home depot/lowes). Now, the pitch may be off (I need to unpack my level) -- could radiator pitch be the culprit? I checked the water in the system and the level looks ok to me. However, I was wondering if most valves being shut off increases the pressure in the system or something? I also noticed that while the system was running and spitting water from these vents, the vent on this main was blowing a lot of visibles team out of it, while the vent on the other main is doing absolutely nothing. All 1st and 2nd floor radiators on this quiet main are off. I think there's one on that main on the 3rd floor, which is on. I have not checked to see if that radiator is hot or spitting water or anything.



SO, that's it in a nutshell. ANY advice would be appreciated. We're moving in and really need some heat ASAP.

Thanks!

nicholas bonham-carter

new house

here is what i think you should do:
1.get good quality air vents for the rads, and the mains-[hoffman or gorton]from pexsupply.com.
2.check your steam pressure-it may be too high.16 ounces is more than enough.
3.get a copy of dan's steam book from here, so you will be better able to do repairs and adjustments yourself.
4.don't shorten the risers. the original installers most likely made them the right length-jack the radiators up a bit with checkers or somesuch, otherwise it will change the pitch of the pipe below.
5.don't bother to replace any more valves-they must not be turned off anyway! leaking packing nuts are easy to fix with graphite string.
6.make sure your water is clean.
these old systems can work very well.they just need the deferred maintainance corrected.--nbc

saussyHen

Thanks for the reply. I will go check this out now.

One thing -- I'm not looking to shorten the risers, I'm looking to lengthen them. They no longer reach the radiator (by 1/4 to 1/2" I'd say) no matter how much I pull them (when I disconnected them, they all dropped a little on their own.

And for the valves already replaced (some were in horrible condition... and in the past, my brother-in-law replaced the packing without much success -- they still leaked)... any advice for getting the spuds out of the radiators?

thanks

saussyHen

pressuretrol cut in only?

This looks like the pressuretrol on my system: http://www.pexsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=285

How do I know what the cut out setting is since there's only cut in on this pressuretrol?

Unknown

Lance- As someone else mentioned get Dan's books (See "A Steamy Deal" at the bottom of this page.) If you don't want to spring for them all, get the one "We Got Steam Heat" though if it were me I'd get them all.

It would help if you posted some pictures as it is much easier to see the problems and recommend a fix.

Leaks become minimal when you lower the pressure and the system operates a lot better at low pressure.

You need to trace out your whole system. Find out where the main vents are (each main should have a vent close to the end of it) and see whether they are working. Check the piping and make sure the fall is correct and there are no sags in the main lines. Main vent orifices are 10 to 20 times bigger than those on radiator vents and if the mains aren't working, the radiator vents are inadequate to do the job. The main vents allow the air to escape from the steam mains so the steam can get in and the radiator vents allow the air to escape from the pipe connecting the main to the radiator and from the radiator itself. If the air doesn't get out, the steam can't get in.

On the radiators use a level to see that they are pitched toward the valve. I had a problem with mine, they looked okay but I finally realized the floor had sagged and they actually sloped the wrong way. Radiators valves are either fully open or fully closed. Open/closed half way causes problems.

These might be of help to you where the pipes come through the floors to clean things up. They worked well for me:

http://www.wagnercompanies.com/site/Viewer.aspx?iid=1875&mname=article&rpid=570"

Sorry for the disjointed thoughts. It's been a long day and
I'm just jotting down items as I think of them. Let us know what you find out and we can go from there. Steam is a really good system once you understand it and correct the problems that have accumulated over the years.

nicholas bonham-carter

spud removal

make 2 radial cuts with a hacksaw from the inside of the spud towards the outside threads of the rad WITHOUT CUTTING INTO THE RAD THREADS, and then whack the circumferance of the spud into the center of the circle.give the rad threads a good wire-brushing before putting the new spud and valve on.
yet another reason to keep the pressure down!

most effective pressure control is the 0-16 oz. vaporstat so throw the old pressuretrol away! you might as well have the system working properly at the begging of the winter instead of later.
also think there will be enough flexibility in the risers to accomodate the new valves.--nbc

nicholas bonham-carter

risers

when i had that riser problem, i used a floor jack from the basement to push them up again while reconnecting the rad!
i think you are doing the right thing to get professional help in this case.
he will also be able to help you to learn how to do many things yourself later.--nbc

LanceT

additional info and photos -- spitting vent problems

I already have the one book... "We Got Steam Heat!" and I've asked for the others for Christmas

I am attaching some photos.

The pressuretrol photo -- on the dial, the '1' is facing me as I look at it so that's what it's set to, right?

The warning label photo -- what does it mean? Should something be connected there? It looks to me like the sticker is saying that something is uncapped underneath? Is that possible? Wouldn't I have had a mess if that were the case?

I also found the manual online and see that the skim tapping hasn't been tapped.. safe to assume it's never been skimmed? Would someone put a valve on, skim it, then remove the valve? I know this was installed in the past 2 years or so.

The main vent photos -- The one that blows steam is for the back of the house. All radiators are connected on this main. Most leak water from the vents, one (second floor) gets very hot and leaks a LOT of water (fills a small bowl daily).

The other main vent appears to have been painted at one point. I hear/feel nothing coming out of it and that return stays cold until the system has run a while. There are two radiators on this main that are not yet hooked up (riser won't reach). Our bedroom radiator is on this main and it gets warm but is VERY loud at night... clanging and clanking and spitting from the vent (not a lot of water, but a lot of noise).


All other photos -- please tell me what I'm looking at. I see the header, the equalizer, the hartford loop, but I don't know enough about any of them to determine if they're done correctly.

Thanks a bunch!

Kara

Hi Lance-

Your problem seems to be wet steam. You have to have a skimming port as skimming is necessary to get rid of the contaminants in the boiler water especially oil. If there is a film of oil on the boiler water, the steam bubbles are forced to push their way through the film and this throws water droplets into steam above the water surface which are then carried along with the steam. On the skim connection- It's fairly standard to skim and then remove the valve and fittings (for safety reasons) leaving a nipple and a cap attached. (I leave the nipple and ball valve on mine as I don't have kids)

Also on the subject of wet steam, I checked over your pictures and looked up your unit at Peerless. You might want to look in the IO& M manual

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Products/ResidentialBoilers/Series63/tabid/114/Default.aspx#dnn_relateddocuments

at the piping on page 14 & Drawing 4.1

Your pictures show one steam riser coming out of the boiler and while the installation manual shows your boiler can be piped with one riser, 2 risers would work a lot better as it would slow down the velocity of the steam leaving the boiler and the slower steam wouldn't pull along as much water.

I would think that unskimmed boiler water coupled with a single riser and high pressure is probably the cause of most of your wet steam problems.

I'd try lowering the pressure and skimming first and see if that would work and then if not, think about adding a second steam riser.

Vents - Vents whether`on the mains or radiators get plugged up and need to be checked regularly. I replaced my main vents with Gorton #2 s

http://www.gorton-valves.com/specify.htm

http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=302&brandid=

Radiator vents need to be regularly checked too. They generally don't like high pressure (over 3 PSI) I used to replace them as needed but now just buy a bunch and replace them all at one time (every couple of years)

LanceT

> Hi Lance-

>

> Your problem seems to be wet steam.

> You have to have a skimming port as skimming is

> necessary to get rid of the contaminants in the

> boiler water especially oil. If there is a film


I know I have one (I was already looking at the manual online). I just commented that it was capped off (I think my terminology got messed up) so I didn't know if that meant it was never skimmed. You answered that though when you said it's common to re-cap it for safety.

I'm brand new to this site and not confident that skimming would be something I would want to try after reading the manual. I'm out of the house all day for work and have 5 kids to deal with in the evening so I really don't have time for it right now.


>

> at the piping on page 14 & Drawing

> 4.1

>

> Your pictures show one steam riser coming

> out of the boiler and while the installation

> manual shows your boiler can be piped with one

> riser, 2 risers would work a lot better as it

> would slow down the velocity of the steam leaving

> the boiler and the slower steam wouldn't pull

> along as much water.


I noticed this, but I wasn't sure what it meant. I didn't know if something was optional *inside* that would make this other connection usable or if it was completely optional.

>

> I would think that

> unskimmed boiler water coupled with a single

> riser and high pressure is probably the cause of

> most of your wet steam problems.

>

> I'd try

> lowering the pressure and skimming first and see

> if that would work and then if not, think about

> adding a second steam riser.


My pressure is already as low as it'll go, isn't it? My cut-in is set to 0.5 and the cut-out to +1. I have a pic that verifies that: http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?pressuretrol.JPG&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=36106

>

> Vents - Vents

> whether`on the mains or radiators get plugged up

> and need to be checked regularly. I replaced my

> main vents with Gorton #2

> s


I've replaced radiator vents in the past... but I've used the home depot ones. Looks like I should try a more quality vent. I've never replaced a main vent, but I need to replace the painted one fore sure (and I might as well replace the other). I will order two now if I can't find them locally.

Thanks

Kara

> > Hi Lance-_BR_ > _BR_ > Your problem

> seems to be wet steam. _BR_ > You have to

> have a skimming port as skimming is _BR_ >

> necessary to get rid of the contaminants in the

> _BR_ > boiler water especially oil. If there

> is a film _BR_

>

> I know I have one (I was

> already looking at the manual online). I just

> commented that it was capped off (I think my

> terminology got messed up) so I didn't know if

> that meant it was never skimmed. You answered

> that though when you said it's common to re-cap

> it for safety.

>

> I'm brand new to this site

> and not confident that skimming would be

> something I would want to try after reading the

> manual. I'm out of the house all day for work

> and have 5 kids to deal with in the evening so I

> really don't have time for it right

> now.

>

> > _BR_ > at the piping on page

> 14 & Drawing _BR_ > 4.1 _BR_ > _BR_ >

> Your pictures show one steam riser coming

> _BR_ > out of the boiler and while the

> installation _BR_ > manual shows your boiler

> can be piped with one _BR_ > riser, 2 risers

> would work a lot better as it _BR_ > would

> slow down the velocity of the steam leaving

> _BR_ > the boiler and the slower steam

> wouldn't pull _BR_ > along as much

> water._BR_

>

> I noticed this, but I wasn't sure

> what it meant. I didn't know if something was

> optional *inside* that would make this other

> connection usable or if it was completely

> optional.

>

> > _BR_ > I would think that

> _BR_ > unskimmed boiler water coupled with a

> single _BR_ > riser and high pressure is

> probably the cause of _BR_ > most of your wet

> steam problems._BR_ > _BR_ > I'd try

> _BR_ > lowering the pressure and skimming

> first and see _BR_ > if that would work and

> then if not, think about _BR_ > adding a

> second steam riser. _BR_

>

> My pressure is

> already as low as it'll go, isn't it? My cut-in

> is set to 0.5 and the cut-out to +1. I have a

> pic that verifies that:

> http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?pressure

> trol.JPG&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=36106

>

> >

> _BR_ > Vents - Vents _BR_ > whether`on

> the mains or radiators get plugged up _BR_ >

> and need to be checked regularly. I replaced my

> _BR_ > main vents with Gorton #2 _BR_ >

> s_BR_

>

> I've replaced radiator vents in the

> past... but I've used the home depot ones. Looks

> like I should try a more quality vent. I've

> never replaced a main vent, but I need to replace

> the painted one fore sure (and I might as well

> replace the other). I will order two now if I

> can't find them locally.

>

> Thanks

LanceT

I picked up two Gorton #1's for the mains at a local supply store today.

I thought I remembered reading that they had to be up 6" above the returns or something like that? I searched but can't find any posts to support that. The current main vents are taller and screwed right into the return (see my photo in another post in this thread).

I didn't buy a section of pipe because I had forgotton about it at the time. Should I put these vents right into the main returns or wait until I can buy a section of pipe to go between them?

thanks

Kara

Hi Lance -
Take a look at the IO&M manual Page 9, Drawing 2.4 of a 63. You can see the two ports for the steam risers. Drawing 2.5 (of a 64) shows them more clearly.

Skimming is no big deal. I also was a little apprehensive at first. You might want to read this article of Dan's as it covers skimming.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=54

Skimming just takes some time as it should be done very slowly just letting the top surface of the boiler water s-l-o-w-l-y drain off. I skimmed 6 times (once a week - Saturday morning for an hour or two) before things began to get satisfactory. If your water level in the glass gauge is bouncing a lot you need to skim.

One thing I noticed in your pictures is that you have a lot of valves to allow you to drain your system. Great idea!

The reason for the vents on the mains is to allow the air to get out so the steam can replace it. The vents let out the air but close when steam reaches them.

Just saw you post about the Groton #1 s.

There was a discussion on this the other day. You can place them on a tee with an elbow at each end. Some one mentioned that they looked like a "menorah" which is an apt description. Brad had a good idea of using a union to attach the "menorah" as that way you can do most of the assembly on a bench. The idea on extending the vents above and away from the main is to help prevent water and gunk
getting into the vents and clogging them.

One of the way you can test your venting capacity is to remove the vent completely and then time how long it takes for the steam to reach the vent hole. Have someone to standby to turn off the boiler when the steam reaches the open vent hole. Another way to do it is to replace the vent temporarily with a ball valve and close the valve when the steam reaches it . Be sure to add some fittings so you won't be sprayed by steam or hot water. Now that you know the time necessary to reach the vent hole, you then just need to add enough venting capacity to equal close to the open pipe venting time.

Just for you information: A Gorton #2 has 3 times the venting capacity of a Gorton #1 and a Gorton #1 has 3 times (in some case 10 times)the venting capacity of a radiator vent.

You can get a chart of venting capacities on line on Dan's site. Really handy for figuring out vent sizes etc.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-138

I found a really handy thing is to get 3 ring loose leaf binder and some clear`plastic page sheet protectors.. I print out steam /boiler info I want to save and put it in the binder. The sheet protectors make things easy to find and keep things clean. Before this I was scrambling every fall trying to find where I'd put things.