help with old Bosmor boiler combustion numbers...

Mark Custis

If all the doors were open, then you know what your problem is. Try tracing where the flue goes. Look for dead flying elephants or birds. What type of flue is it? Masonry? B-vent? Big building mystery flue?

I was not banging you about self-calibration, just a liability point.

Air, even with heated flue gases, takes the easy out, just like water.

You now know why the unit went to soot. You need more draft so something has changed. Find the dead flying elephant and you will still be my hero, for saving lives.

I have done the get it fixed now thing without as much productive protection gear as I should have used. I sometimes think I will go to teaching when I need O2 gear.

Timco

Well, I finally got my analyzer calibrated, and here's what I have to figure out. Input BTU of boiler is 387,000 and meter clocks to 210,000 at 1" WC GV pressure. Combustion numbers are ex air 143%, stack 320*, O2 12.9%, CO2 4.5%, CO 245PPM. If I cover the draft hood, I get Ex air 215%, Stack 350*, O2 14.8%, CO2 3.4%, CO 518ppm. Stack is a 12" and is 25-30' tall. Tri-plex is on a hill, very seep. Keep in mind, when I got there, HX was totally blocked with soot and CO was over 2000ppm, and was still over 1000ppm after cleaning with GV at 3.5"WC. CO dropped very steady with reduction in gas press, but 1" is pretty low. No impingemen. Draft is between 0 and -.01.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Tim

Steamhead (in transit)

It's way underfired

210 MBH is 54% of 387. That also explains the high percentages of excess air. I wouldn't go down lower than 291 MBH or so- that's 75% of 387- and then only if the analyzer showed good combustion.

Keep in mind that a flame that's too cool- from severe underfiring, too much excess air or both- will make CO just as well as one that's impinging. That's why the CO goes up when you cover the draft hood.

Do these burners have air shutters? If so, I'd open them as far as you can without making the flames lift off the burners. This will slightly divert more air straight to the flames (the "primary air"), reducing their length and the chance of impingement.

Another possibility is that despite your thorough cleaning, there may still have been enough soot in there to cause high CO as it burns off. Go back and check it again, and tell us what you find.

Note to anyone reading this who doesn't have a digital analyzer- Don't try this. Call a pro who has an analyzer.

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Timco

Even at 1.25" WC GV press the CO jumped to over 750ppm, so I left it underfired. Still heats very quick. At 3.0WC I had impingement, and flame rolling out on a hard start every time it fired. First thought was a baro damper, but will check the shutters tomorrow. Should have caught that...darn!

Tim

Mark Custis

Tim

You need more draft.

Timco

These measurements were taken with the boiler room door open and the garage door open, so fresh air was dumping in. With an already 12" (might have been 14") vent, more height? Tried covering the hood to pull through the boiler but that was not an improvement...will recheck HX clean tomorrow but appreciate other suggestions to look at while I am there with the tester...needs to be right.

Tim

Steamhead (in transit)

Mark's right

you need to test with doors closed. Also, did you take your draft measurement between the boiler and draft hood, or between the draft hood and chimney?

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don_185

Not

not but two adjustment on that boiler.You have gas pressure or draft.

If the boiler is clean and you know that to be fact you're left with nothing but draft.

You've already experience what happen from 3.5 to 1 with the gas pressure.Nothing left but the draft.

happy hunting!

Mark Eatherton

You need...

a new boiler...

Those Basmor's are just like some of the older atmospheric Crane/Am Stan boilers. Cast iron in shot burner, piece of crap that can not be adjusted to ANYTHING that is reasonable. Technically speaking, it IS within the G.A.M.A. standards tho (400 PPM)...

I also disagree with the need for more draft, as indicated by blocking off the draft hood. There is a delicate threshold balance of fire, and draft, but to try and maintain that one is impossible, even with a barometric damper.

They NEED a new boiler. If they can't afford to buy one, maybe you can convince the new president to "lend" them the needed money in the name of environmental conservation. At lest there would be benefits to THAT loan as opposed to the crap that is going on right now.:-)

8 trillion dollars and climbing.

Sell them a new boiler Tim. It will reduce their energy consumption by 40% and save lives.

ME

Timco

Well, we went out of town for the holiday so Monday it will be. Given all the soot in the boiler, cheking the vent from the roof is next, along with reinspecting the HX. I am pretty sure it is SW lined all the way up a msrny chim. Lowering gas pressure stopped the hard start & rollout. How low is too low firing if O2 & CO2 are within acceptable parameters? Bottom line is cust may not want new boiler, and this one is just not condemable if it is functioning within it's own parameters. Readings were taken from inside draft hood above hood. Will check under the hood Monday as well, but may need to leave this boiler as good as I can get it. High profile criminal defense attorney owns this 3-plex. Boiler room door is always open by order of housing inspector, as it is too small, and garage is cold & drafty so GD being open was very close to actual conditions.

Thanks guys, some units are really hard to make safe. Some dial right in...

Tim

Unknown

This thing is an

accident waiting to happen shut it down and red tag it. Send the lawyer a registered letter to protect yourself.

On those type of burners lowering gas pressure is not a good idea. When the burners start to go there is no repairing them and you will spend a lot of time chasing your tail.

SHUT IF OFF BEFORE SOMEONE GETS HURT.

don_185

if

If i'm reading this correctly, it sound like you have a big hood hanging off the back of the boiler.

If that is the case you should be able to stick your tester in all section and see which burner is foul.

Timco

Draft hood is on top in the middle, with an inspection door front & rear.

If I am going to condem this boiler for firing the way it has likely it's entire life, I need a more detailed description of the burner failing, not just "gone" or "bad". What fails on these burners with a cross on top of a finger design? Condeming the boiler puts ME on the hot seat leaving a 3-plex with no heat and freezing nights. I would need a damn good detailed explination of what has failed and just why it cannot be fixed, otherwise it really looks & sounds like a strong-arm tactic...like an electrician saying "fire hazard" to a cloth wire service that has been in place 100 years and would be fine for another 100 but just not to current standards... If my customer wants it fixed, I had better be able to say, there is NO WAY to do so, and your life is at risk, and I am not comfortable saying that yet. Tested 0ppm CO in the boiler room currently, and CO output is 1/8 what it was when I got there. May be able to do better after checking draft & shutter position & vent conditions. Nothing has changed in the building except some jack a$$ swapping the gas valve, collecting, and running away from a boiler putting out over 2000ppm CO. The customer has the right to request the existing boiler be fixed, if at all possible and may not even want to hear the possible savings...

Tim

Mark Custis

New Information

Need input on the "new gas valve" after you check the flue.

Mark Eatherton

You are in the drivers seat Tim...

Don't let this turn into a bus wreck.

The basic facts are this;

1. The boiler is worn out and needs replaced.

2. The boiler IS a death trap, waiting to happen. If it's making CO, even though the chimney has good draft and is keeping the CO from leaking IN to the room, all it takes is a wind from a wrong direction to cause the appliance to start spilling, and WHAM, you've got a "situation"...

3. The current boiler is an energy hog. It NEEDS to be gotten rid of.

There are lives at stake here. No hidden pressure here. The gas authority would probably shut them down, without remorse, if they knew the circumstances.

If something DOES go wrong, God forbid, you'd better get ready for the ride of your life, and I can pretty well guarantee, you will lose. Everything.

It can't be fixed, and even if you COULD, you're still stuck in the chain of liability. You touched it last.

Get rid of it. Think outside the box. Literally. You said there was a garage nearby. Put the new wall hung boiler in the garage, off the floor, not taking up any real car space (if there IS any...) and your shut down/transition time is confined to one day. Pump the condensate back into the house to the nearest drain using clear plastic tubing. Bada bing, bada boom.

If you need help convincing the consumer that they need to get rid of it, have them call me, and I will explain the facts of life (or death) to them...

ME

Unknown

I agree with Mark E & Tim McElwain,

this is likely some old POS converted many times over, but because you touched-it last,,,,.

Red tag-it, and tell the guy to get a 2nd opinion if he wants, perhaps a signed acknowledgment(if you can get it), would help.
Sticking your neck-out for that mess is guaranteed trouble!

Dave

Mark Custis

I must agree with Tim and Mark

My proding to solve the equipment malfuction is deeply rooted in a fix it if possible mind set.

Mark, thanks for clearing the cob webs out of my balding hard drive.

Tim, red tag the SOB and walk away or sell the wall hung. If ME can not sell the unit have them call me. 440-223-0840.

If there is an elephant in the flue let me know.

What does the boiler heat?

Timco

I am very confident I can explain this to them, but how do I show or explain "worn out"? What exactly is outside of tolerances? Burner openings are enlarged? HX is thinner? GV is the only thing changed in the picture. I have made much older boilers run at far lower CO with barometrics and a good cleaning, but if there is physically something failed I am very willing to dondem it. I have already been told she does not want to replace it, but if I can prove failure, that would change things. Does anyone agree that if there is no actual failure, the customer has the right to keep and maintain and have repaired any boiler they wish? I am on the higher efficientcy bandwagon, really, but am bound to be square with my customer, explain exactly what the issue is, and repair it if possible whe asked to do so. I guess I am not a salesman...

Tim

Timco

3-plex, 4 zones. I will make some assessments Monday and condem it if I cannot make it fire right (less than 100ppm CO) since asked to do so...

Tim

Mark Custis

We liked New England too.

Tim: If you have not found the "numbers" for this machine with all the SOSs you have sent the are probably not available. Tell that to your cleint.

Ask to see the invoice on the gas valve change out. Examine it and any other bills the client may allow you to see. There is a paper trail.

I am sure you have seen enough burners to know a good one from a bad. I am also sure if the burners are CI you washed them when you power wash the chest of the boiler. Stamped steel burners will rust, burn and/or distort and become wornout.

IF THE BURNERS LOOK, ok they may not be OK in realtime. The only thing you do not know for sure is burner condition and DRAFT.

If the paper trail does not give you an answer, check the flue, call in sewer cams r us if needed.

Any of us "salesmen" will help with the sale.

Make your call, explain what you have found, explain how you would fix the situation, (a pair of mod-cons, primary/secondary to the main loops comes to mind) give the customer your invoice, red tag the unit and go home.

Unknown

I am not a salesman either

Tim, but explain the guidelines we are to go by, the effort you put-in to bring things-up(for them) to this century, but that boiler is NOT capable of getting there.
A tri-plex?, besides yourself, imagine the explaining they would have to do for not protecting their tenants!

Dave

Mark Eatherton

The effects of operating a normally aspirated burner on low gas

pressure are well documented. Not just with cast iron, but also stainless steel ribbon type burners.

By holding the flame directly in contact with the burner face, it becomes stressed and actually starts sloughing off, causing the burner holes to get larger..hence when the burner pressure is turned up to what its supposed to be (typically 3.5" water column), the appliance becomes extremely over fired, and the CO gets worse, possibly overcoming the stack, causing roll out.

Even resizing the orifices won't correct the problem. The problem is that the burners are shot. Plain and simple. And they can't be fixed or replaced. It happens more often than you'd think, and the appliance does generate a lot of CO, and in some cases (yours) the boiler flue gas passage ways become fouled, causing a major roll out and "CO EVENT".

Adding a barometric damper may help get rid of the excess air CO generator, but the burner's are still shot. Been there, tried everything many times, could not correct the situation. Had to replace the boiler.

Do the right thing. You don't have to be a "salesman". They're looking to YOU, the EXPERT for expert ADVICE. Give it to them straight.

ME

Timco

The burner description you give is exactly the hard explaination I need. I just refuse to say "shot" or "gone" or "bad"...when giving a reason to condem a boiler and provide a price for replacement, the customer deserves and needs a full explaination of the failure, and why their wishes cannot and should not be carried out...most will willingly accept the end of their boiler's era even if they do not fully understand the circumstances we describe. This woman is very educated, and a full description of the issues at hand will certainly help move this in a safe direction.

Thanks a million for all the advise, guys! I will take it all and do good things with it that will help keep a good name to the industry we love.

Tim

Mark Custis

I never loved

putting doors on Econoline vans as a college student. I must love this stuff because I still am doing it.

Good luck is prepairedness meeting opportunity.

Got get-um.

don_185

new gas valve

I'll bet he finds the manifold is not setting level.