Wrong Piping and other issues

USA498

I figured the HARTFORD loop ( sorry about hudson-wrong state ) should go almost to the floor and then back up to a close nipple or "Y". Should the two wet returns also go into a "Y" before going to the floor ?
How about the ends of the mains as they convert into the wet returns, should these be corrected or left alone.

Thanks for your replies !

Pete

USA498

Piping Wrong ?

Attached are a couple of images of piping on my 1 pipe steam system. One shows the end of main piping without eccentric reducers. Is this no good ? Also attached is an image of my Hudson loop ( though I don't thing it classifies as such ). Should this be repiped ? If so what should I tell my plumber to do.

Many Thanks !

nicholas bonham-carter

piping ?

if you can find a copy of your boilers installation manual, it will have the recommended piping instructions. try to get back to a correct pipe arrangement.check the various heights of waterline in relation to the height of steam main.
the hartford loop does look odd, but i can only see part of the boiler in each picture.all steam piping should be done in threaded iron pipe to avoid later unhappiness.
since you would be redoing the piping, you may want to have larger dia. pipes on the risers than is shown in the manual.--nbc

Unknown

nbc's correct

Nbc's correct on finding the manual and follow it to the specs...
Now, what's is the differnce between a hudson and hartford loop?

nicholas bonham-carter

separate or together ?

the mains should remain separate with no interconnection until joining to the wet return at about floor level.

the hartford loop [from the ins. co. ] should also drop out of the boiler equalizer to the floor, and then connect to the wet return.

did i suggest that you buy dan's book lost art of steam heating? it has a wealth of steam related info, which will make you better able to deal with installers. as well, you will probably end up doing quite a bit of your own work on the old girl.--nbc

Unknown

As was mentioned I'd look at the manufacturer's installation instructions, check their diagrams and see what they recommend. (If you don't have them, they can be downloaded from the manufacturer's websites) One needs to keep in mind that most manufacturer's recommendations tend to be minimums rather than optimums so as to be able to compete with other manufacturers for the lowest bid.

I'm an amateur at this so please keep that in mind. If the system were mine I wouldn't be too happy with the "wet return". Every one I have seen comes down to the floor level, goes horizontal for while and then comes up to join the Hartford loop using a close nipple. Take a look at the diagram in this link:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=91

Note the diagram and read down this page as it mentions the need to use the close nipple so the water can't get up speed and slam into the other side of the tee where it joins the Hartford loop as this will cause water hammer. (You see this need for this close nipple mentioned time and time again in steam literature) What I see in your configuration amounts to very long nipple so I can only think that this has a great chance of causing serious water hammer.

Also keep in mind that the wet return sort of acts as an outside "reservoir" to increase the boiler's water`capacity (See the diagram in the link above) Without this extra water, your boiler's inside water level will drop very quickly. With your return (as can be seen in the picture) as it is now (with very little wet return) you have almost a complete dry return.

Further down the page of the link above, it mentions that the Hartford loop should be 1 1/2 inches pipe minimum. I'd compare this with your manufacturer's installation instructions but keep in mind "big is better" and you want to keep it the same size right up to where it enters the boiler.

The other thing I would do is put a tee and a drain valve at the base of the Hartford loop and also the same thing at the base of the wet return before it rises to join the Hartford loop. These will give you a fitting where you can drain the crud which builds up over`time in your wet return and your Hartford loop. From what I've heard one of the biggest sources of steam problems is related to a clogged wet return so having a way to drain/clean them makes sense.

Also I understand that it's not a bad idea to connect boiler makeup water (New water- to fill the boiler) into the wet return at the bottom before it rises to meet the Hartford loop. This way the new cold water will mix with the warmer water in the wet return before it enters the boiler and this helps prevent thermal shock to the boiler castings.

On your other picture of the mains(?)- I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at so can't really comment.

Hope these thoughts are of help.
- Rod