Nabcep test for solar thermal

Royboy

in the NABCEP solar thermal study guide actually representative of the test in your experience? it seemed surprisingly non-challenging ...

michael - the test itself is in March; January is the application deadline.

Roy

Sunrise Energy Services

michael_34

Nabcep test for solar thermal

Hi all!
I want to take the NABCEP test this Jan. What materials should I read to prepare me for this test (books, notes whatever! besides the Solar Thermal Candidate Information Handbook), It would be nice to pass the first time around. Or any other suggestions.
Thanks
Michael

Radman_2

NABCEP prep

Hi Michael,
You will need to get a hold of all of the recommended text, including the OSHA guidelines and Tom Lanes book. They used to require "Planning & Installing Solar Thermal Systems" via James & James press, but that has been removed from the list. Sad, because it is the only book on the list not still in the dark ages of solar. If you get an invitation to sign up for a test prep webinar from IREC, don't waste your time unless you have no knowledge of solar thermal in the first place. The class is far too basic to cover the test, and they really won't even discuss it (the test) in the webinar. You will also do yourself a favor to download the FSEC pool heating manual, as there are a good deal of pool related questions on the test. A lot of what NABCEP is pushing as a standard for thermal is really outdated, so stick with the suggested reading material rather than newer solar principles.

michael_34

radman and royboy

Radman thanks on irec deal, I was going to do it. Now no need. I will download theFSEC also. Thank you.
Royboy your right it is in March. Thanks.

hot_rod

March

is the test date I am signed up for. I've heard the test has changed a bit (from someone on his third try But it does have a lot of pool questions, still.

I'm wondering why there are so few NABCEP certified installers? Something like 70 thermal nationwide?

You sure do have to jump through a lot of hoops to get accepted. Took me 6 months and an 1" of paperwork.

hr

Radman_2

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The study guide is partly similar, but with so much text to be covered the tests are all over the place. Also, it seems they have changed the tests over the past year, according to some other colleagues of mine who have also sat for it. This is one of those tests that will trip you up based upon what to study, not difficulty of questions.

Radman_2

Now you got my dander up...

Boy HR, I can relate being on my now 3rd try as well. Didn't study at all for the first, got a 74. Took the IREC study course (total joke) 2nd time scored 10 pts less! Crazy questions too, such as "Which ENGINEERED metal has better heat transfer properties?" a) Aluminum b)Copper c)Galvanized d)Steel
Never a single question about where NOT to put iso valves, how to calc system fill pressure, distance between rows of collectors, (except a rule of thumb, which is 2.5x the collector height which is crazy of course because that distance changes with the pitch of the collector. Seems like a lot of UNION influence weighing heavily on NABCEP. Sad, because most jurisdictions could give a hoot about NABCEP or even know what it is. They sure are proud of the cost to sit the test too. Since you are on your 3rd try I feel better;-)

michael_34

but what is the answer to the

metal heat transfer question?

Royboy

OK

well - I guess this gives me a different picture than I got from the sample questions in the study guide, which struck me as pretty simplistic. I guess if the winter turns out to slow, then I will always know what I can be doing ... (studying! - and that's not necessarily a bad thing - always more to learn and assimilate - but I do hate having to deal poorly worded and conceived questions).

for example, I'd say that aluminum has the better heat transfer properties, but I have no idea what "engineered" means in that context.

onward - Roy

Sunrise Energy Services

Royboy

the discrepancy between thermal and PV certified installers

is interesting ... and kinda reflective of the popular image of "solar energy" which has morphed from 30 years ago being a heating technology to now being an electrical generating technology. when I tell people I work in the "solar" field these days they more often than not start asking about PV. despite the fact that thermal applications are still generally the most cost effective. go figure.

a friend of mine who is sort of a PV guru, is PV nabcep certified, and is on the board of nabcep, says the PV test is quite tough - many people have to take multiple times, but left me with the impression that the thermal test is not as bad. hope he's right and that the questions are good.

Roy

hot_rod

first time testing

I was scheduled for the September test date in Chicago this year. It was the weekend they had those huge rain storms. I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for 3 hours and missed the test. I never did get into Chicago that day.

Someone offered me the test answers for 40 bucks, I declined. but I suspect maybe that is the difference between some that pass on the first try

I did hear the recent test were completely different from previous,maybe they got onto the "leaks."

It seems if NABCEP is serious about being a "national" certification they should make it easier to apply and take the test. Twice a year any in person seems silly in this day in age. Certainly they could proctor that test at any university?

hr

michael_34

It would be nice if they provided

better information on what to study for. Man, from the people I spoke to that have taken it, there is so many inane questions that seem unrelated. Radman and you Hotrod have taken it. I have not. So how do you prepare for the unknown. And don't say Faith : )!
It would be nice if they provided a sample test or practice test. I mean **** 300.00 dollars is a lot of money. I know guys that won't take the exam just because of that. They are busy and haven't needed yet! you can't blame them.
Sorry for the rant. I not the saying the test should be a piece of cake, but information is necessary to excel at anything!
No cheating though! just better edjumacashawn!

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_11

makes me wonder why

a group of us don't get together (on line to conserve costs due to being spread out far & wide) and build our own certification exam so that the questions would ALL be based on practical and fundamental requirements. Aluminum (& glycol)? Galvanized? Steel??? Seems like a BS question.

Every cert exam I've ever taken seems to include about 10% BS questions that mean little to nothing other than to fill up the exam. Toss in another 10% that split hairs between what the exam writer(s) think is correct and their second/third close-calls.

Follow the money trail!

Radman

An excellent point, which leads me to say...

Dave, I'm glad you said it. Solar has come a long way, and in the classes I teach there is no room for technology that is 30 years old. The reason that NREL is dedicated to PV research is because ST has become so reliable and proven that the market drives its survial. (this directly from one of it's chief directors who is also my very happy client that DOESN'T have PV) Here is an industry that has survived 30 years (US) of ups & downs with little help from the government. When the tax credits died in 84 this industry survived though it took a devastating blow. It has continued to grow in spite of the Feds brushing it aside. The math does not lie, you can generate 4x or more the total Kw power from thermal than PV.
Ellen Rohr and I were talking yesterday about contractor testing and its role in the industry. So often, tests results weigh heavily on where the information comes from and if it was studied. This is why typically ICC and state contractor exams are often on one code text and open book. However, some require practicals which is the case here in CO. This is where the testing will weed out the under-qualified. This is a simple business plan, it should be a FOR PROFIT organization so we can grow, and there is talk of this RIGHT NOW here in our micro group of solar wetheads in CO. Frankly, I think part of the model should be an acquisition of the NABCEP solar thermal division and others.

Radman

The answer is...

Don't put questions like that on the test. To know the answer, each metals specific heat at absolute 0 would have to be known, at which point you could calculate the metal's "k" value which refers to it's thermal conductivity. In addition, since copper is typically used close to it's purest form, and steel, galvanized, and aluminum are all alloys my guess would be Aluminum. HOWEVER, if you research this question you will find that the answer is elusive. Which brings me to my point, why is it relative to Solar Thermal for the practical certification of INTSTALLERS? It simply isn't.

Radman

Exactly my point...

If you don't have the proper information then how can you possibly learn, right? But alas, there must be a standard right? I'm sure Hot Rod can relate here, as since being involve with Caleffi he must travel and see all kinds of solar installations and equipment. Europe has their standards, and the bar is pretty high. Here, we have none. If you review solar in the UMC/UPC, or any of the I-codes, you will find enough info to fill a couple of 8.5x11" sheets of paper, that's it. Plumbing has standards, Refrigeration has standards, Steam has standards, and GOD and Dan H. know HYDRONICS has standards. And in this forum they are pretty high! NABCEP can't be burdened with standards since that is a different model. Which brings me to your point of some guys not wanting to pay $300 (heck I think HR & I are up to $650 now) BECAUSE they haven't needeed it yet. Exactly the problem. What good is a certification that does not serve a purpose that certifies? If you can't pull a permit with it, it's useless. Now, in defense of NATE, which does not get you a permit either, at least the HVAC industry as a whole has gotten on board and endorses that certification which has MARKETING value. Are there NATE certified techs who would have trouble figuring out if they ordered fries or not? You bet, but as an industry recognized litmus test for general knowledge it works. Why does it work? Because the HVAC industry, PSI, NEXSTAR, PHCC, and too many others to list accept it as so. As a solar energy professional, I have to reject NABCEP certification as a litmus of qualification based upon it's lack of standards.
Michael, I feel your pain and wish I had a simple answer but honestly I am struggling with the same question. I guess study everything because I studied nothing (as it relates to their text) and didn't pass. When I did study what relates, I did worse. Go figure.

Radman

Thanks for that!

Like there was any other choice eh?
Probably an undercover union/NABCEP spy.
It is clear that the tests change from each date, but jeez I can sit any of the ICC tests within 4 weeks with a phone call. That whole 6 months between tests and 12 weeks to see results is pathetic.

joseph annon

Nabcep

I think the idea is but not necessarily in touch with current installation components and methods. I found the test to be heavy on pool solar thermal systems (of which I install very few of. not many of pools here). When I took the test there were a significant number of subjective questions where there was no "right" answer only the best answer. Like when a customers roof is surveyed for a roof mounted install and the shingles (not many shingle roofs either flat or metal on a pitch) are found to be in bad shape and maybe the roof already has leaks do you
a)install and say nothing
b)tell the customer they need a new roof
c)your installation will fix the leaks]
d)repair the roof before you install

For me if I see a roof in poor condition I tell the customer that I highly recommend that they have a professional roofer check their roof out and give them a recommendation. I am not a roofer and I do not have the experience that a roofer has.
So while I think that a national certification agency is good I think that NABCEP,s test is a little out of touch with the reality of installation.
NABCEP certified thermal installer.

Joe Annon

hot_rod

My motivation for NABCEP testing

is not so much for installations but to be able to teach the info needed to take the test.

I'd rather see it split into thermal, PV, and a pool module as an extra certification.

I can see PV and thermal crossing if you install PV powered thermal, but not the complete engineering behind designing full scale PV systems. That seems to fit better with the electricians not hydronic/ plumbing contractors.

They, NABCEP, are a little hard to get info from. I've e-mailed and even spoke to them at one of the trade show booths. Doesn't seem like they are quite ready for prime time.

Lot of great, qualified installers don't test well. Look at the pass rate for the RPA tests to get an idea. Yet the system design, installation and troubleshooting knowledge most of the test takers possess is incredible. Seems some pratical should be included with all the written testing and add that into the scoring.

When I took my Montana journeyman test we had to do a lead joint, copper soldering and offset piping. It got graded right down to how many oakum hairs were in the lead pour

hr

Radman

Too bad Oakum..

isn't available as readily anymore. Works great on those European tank's cold rolled threads...
God bless Dead Men and all those lead joints...
A moment of silence please.

michael_34

There is some highly intelligent people on this website. If we don't like something we can change it.