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chiller for combination air /water cooled refregerant units

As always most of the jobs i do where some bodies hack job ,well here's one for you professor ,9 indoor refregrant condenser units for a walk in frezer/refregerator a bucnh of deli cases and some reeach in all located above the bathrooms access from the back of the kitchen and all where air cooled of course none of them worked because of the hi ambeint temps compressor shut off on hi temp there where a bunch of attemps to duct some outside air and some exhaust up there but did not help so the original guy added head pressure control and attached water cooled condenser which come on according to the head pressure works sweet what a fix right not so fast upon first seeing this we imformed the bagel store owner about possible hi water bills i was not worried well now he is he owes the water company about 20 grand and wants a fix there is absoulte no where to out mount these units nor any place to place a tower ,there is a small place to install stay one or 2 outdoor unit andd that;s about it ,my question is is it possible to use a small flat plate and a say 8 hp condenser and make a closed loop chilled water loop for these water cooled condenser of couse there would be say a 30 to 40 gallon buffer tank of chilled water for storage and to help pervent short cycling i know i making it sound a bit simple and i under stand that i got to do a bit more reasearch on my condensers loads ,this place had so many promblems inclding the rest of the mechincals that after wasting alot of time on that crap our propasals where thrown to the side and they used my ideas and yet had another hack do the job it doesn,t work because of a few vitale info i left out ,sorry fot the long post but is this possibe or would that hi condenser dis charge temps be over loading the chiller .Ps my partner has been making his own chiller for the plasticblow injection indusrties for about 30 years smaller ones down to about 2 hp for a another co mpany which designs blow molds ,he states that the chiller would not be able to lower that condenser dischage temp down fast enough from say 90 t 100 to say 45 want do you think peace ad good luck clammy
R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

Comments

  • ddlong1286@yahoo.com
    [email protected] Member Posts: 139
    NO Room

    No room on the roof? Mounts on the wall(hate 'em, but can be worked around)? Where would you place the chiller mechanicals if no room for the remote condensors?

    Sounds like you need a small rack system with remote condensor, but may not have room for that either.

    Worked on convenience stores and they had comp on top of walk-ins, cond on the roof. New stores had comp in back room and cond. outside next to room.

    Let us know how it works out.

    Don in MO
  • Jim_64
    Jim_64 Member Posts: 253
    no room

    Don thanks for the responce ,the building in question is 2 stories with a office space above and a pitched roof 8 on 12 pitch,there is a flat roof except there is no acess through the building to get there plus there is also a bank with a large concrete bank vault which makes it impossible to get to the roof also it would be well over 150 ft for the electric and ref lines so it's a no go.The worst part is the bussiness owner is cluelessand the guy he brought the bagel store from just built thge place and then sold it and it is not the first store which he hacked and sold it just happens this was one of the worst stores that he did .Beside the ref promblems the HA /AC system do not work either due to the constricted duct work which is so chocked down due to very bad duct transistion piece that wrap around the fire suprression and sprinkler system which is in accessable due to the fact that there above another walk in freezer which has a soffit past the drop cieling that makes access impossible the coils just freeze and of course the heat just cycles on the units limites and the custermer areas are very cold in the winter and boiling in the summer ,I really have no ideas besides my first post except to tell the guy to get used to paying huge water bills or go after the original owner who sold him the store and or find another location and start over but as always we will quote them and then they will get the cheapest guy and get screwed again it's quite sicken around here especially when it comes to cutting corners and service agreements nobody clean crap they just crank up the head pressure controller destroy the compressor and sell them a new condensing unit until it's dirty and it all start over again what a pisser thanks clammy
  • Jim_64
    Jim_64 Member Posts: 253
    forgot this

    Also on the back of the building is the drive through for the bank and a small loading area for a few small bussinesses so the rack system does not have much area to be mounted also because of the 3 kitchen exhausts PS no make up air system either isn't improper planning excellent yeah clammy
  • Chilling problem

    You could definitely go with a chilled water system, but the costs involved in making this happen would be very high. You would need to produce chilled water for the lowest temperature box even though some of the boxes are refrigerators. With some fancy and creative control strategies, this is definitely possible and would be a very unique system. The one thing to consider is the load on the system and the fact that the water/antifreeze mixture temperature would have to be brought down below zero degrees. This would mean a large chiller (horsepower) when compared to the actual cooling load on the system.

    Probably the best, and most reasonable option is to put a small cooling tower in service. Although you mentioned that there is not a lot of room, a small tower will have a footprint of about 6 feet square. With some creative floorplan re-working, this is probably your best bet.

    If you want, e-mail me with the particulars as far as floor layout, individual unit locations and applications and I will try to come up with somthing for you.

    All the best.

    The Professor
    Eugene
  • Jim_64
    Jim_64 Member Posts: 253
    Thanks profesor

    well i dropped a few hints to the owner and he seems to not be worried again but maybe because you only get your water bill every 3 months so i'm pretty sure he will start complaining very soon {new water bill feb } Ido think he is thinking of bailing on this store because of all the promblems and find another location but with this econony he more likely to just shut it down as is alot of places super slow .thanks clammy
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,637
    update

    i see some of my posts that my name was hanged to jim who knows ,but here's the update the bussiness owner has gotten his water bill over 20 grand well he's wheeled and dealed with the water company and got the bill discounted about 50 % and the water co sent out some guys and they changed out the water regulator valves and now the place is boiling and most of the refregerant units are over heating and not holding temps (walk in freezer and fridge )They had reduced the inlet line size and set them to open at a very hi head pressure (225 psi) we have now advised the owner to contact the water company and have them straighten it out .As for myself i have kinda let the job go i feel there's nothing that can be reasonably done to get these unit to work properly exept wait for them to burn out and order condenser units that are designed for higher ambeints temps even though this will effect the temperture of the retail spae being that the existing a/ c systems are very compromsed due to major short comings in supply and return duct sizing and access to repair or re do .as for a outdoor rack system it's a no go there is just no place to mount any thing on the rear of the building .I guess we will make money replacing the condensers as they over heat and damage the compressor windings from operating in a hi ambient location live and learn peae and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
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